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Company and PhilosophyThe universal basic income or income: operating debate

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Ahmed
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Re: The universal basic income or income: operating debate

Unread Messageby Ahmed » 08/03/17, 12:28

More broadly, it would be interesting to position in time the coming of such a device and to inscribe it in the deterministic logic that guides contemporary history.
Several elements seem indeed to predict the advent of a technological quantum leap (NBIC).
Since chance is not on the agenda in the system, it is a safe bet that the UK is therefore part of a logic of neutralization.

Thanks to you, I discovered the theoretical possibility of a beyond to capitalism, a dystopia that would be a techno-system, it would necessarily emancipate itself from the economy, since the social relations would be upset. The fact remains that the transition (because it is a virtuality) is difficult to apprehend intellectually, but things now seem clearer to me. Universal income is a possible tool for this transitional phase, in that it allows us to assume for some time the growing inutility of an overwhelming part of the population. This is another danger that I had not envisaged until now: this moratorium of discontent would continue until the transition would be sufficiently advanced for it to be removed unilaterally and with it the survival of those Which he supported.
In order for the economic system to disappear (this assumes that the determinisms which might play a role in favor of a techno-systemic transition occur before the contradictions of the present system cause its collapse), it is imperative that the present social relations cease to exist, Expressing through the categories of abstract value, labor and merchandise, so that an "elite" controlling machines deploys another ideology, based on completely new categories.
We see here that supporting the UK is a very dangerous option and that it is very adventurous to avoid a serious economic-political analysis, to be satisfied with a rattle that will satisfy the aspirations of the current opponents who Do not yet understand, in their majority, how favorable it is to them (as has been seen on numerous occasions in history).
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Re: The universal basic income or income: operating debate

Unread Messageby sen-no-sen » 08/03/17, 23:07

Ahmed wrote:Thanks to you, I discovered the theoretical possibility of a beyond to capitalism, a dystopia that would be a techno-system, it would necessarily emancipate itself from the economy, since the social relations would be upset.


It's doing me a lot of honor! : Oops:

Universal income is a possible tool for this transitional phase, in that it allows us to assume for some time the growing inutility of an overwhelming part of the population. This is another danger that I had not envisaged until now: this moratorium of discontent would continue until the transition would be sufficiently advanced for it to be removed unilaterally and with it the survival of those Which he supported.


Indeed, it is important to understand universal income, not as such, but as a principle articulated within a more general mechanism.
The basic idea of ​​the UK is in itself quite attractive, but loses considerably its potential of attraction once understood within the historical process to come.
It makes it clear that, contrary to what is taken up by certain B.Hamon The automation of the means of production, and more broadly the functioning of a large part of society, will not affect only the low-skilled jobs in favor of occupations accessible to high-level graduates (such as engineers or other),But rather the reverse.

On the contrary, the economic market should strive to destroy the best paying jobs for the benefit of automation and leave the jobs underpaid to a docile and very broad workforce.In fact why automate when one has Access to an army of working poor?
It will be much more cost-effective to "employ on demand" ("Flexicurity") Than to resort to expensive inexpensive robots to perform complex tasks such as cleaning, helping the person, or the hotel business.

It is in this sense that universal income comes into play: to guarantee a minimum of existence in order to make the masses of working poor obedient,To neutralize the minimum wage And to allow the continuation of the process of technological conquest by repelling the social implosion at a later period.


(...) to satisfy the aspirations of the current opponents who do not yet understand, in their majority, how favorable it is to them (as has been seen on numerous occasions in history).


Indeed it appears that the reversal of jacket is common thing in the politicians, as we demonstrate the actuality ...
When the time comes the UK will impose itself and will be entitled to an unstoppable replica of the type "I was opposed to it and then I thought a lot and I now find the idea appealing" , Typical of the politician who does not think, but who is the reflection of the economic system that bears it.




* Period or humanity should no longer be able to influence technologism ....
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Re: The universal basic income or income: operating debate

Unread Messageby Petrus » 09/03/17, 00:53

sen-no-sen wrote:It is in this sense that universal income comes into play: to guarantee a minimum of existence in order to make the masses of working poor obedient,To neutralize the minimum wage And to allow the continuation of the process of technological conquest by repelling the social implosion at a later period.

There I am no longer, how to ensure basic needs can it make workers more docile?
Rather, if the basic needs are met, the worker will be more likely to send his boss away if his wages and working conditions are not satisfactory.
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Ahmed
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Re: The universal basic income or income: operating debate

Unread Messageby Ahmed » 09/03/17, 09:27

My remark about conservative opponents in the UK was not just about the political caste, but more generally the dominant ones. Indeed, being unaware of the historical evolution, they do not perceive the interest they would derive from this measure which currently takes them "backward" (like workers' pensions, paid holidays or the increase of Wages in their time).
Note: I think a policy would not say this, but rather in that form - "I had expressed some reservations when this UK measure had been debated, because I thought it was premature and inadequate to the context of the time, today the time has come for this social progress to find its full place in our society and That it makes its contribution ... etc".

Pétrus: This is the reasoning used to "sell" the UK, but, like a glove, it can easily turn around. A basic income exempts the employer from proposing a decent wage *, given that the application of the UK does not stipulate the amount of this income and therefore does not give any indication of the possibility of living with this minimum Other economic parameters are involved). In reality, the UK is an additional tool for piloting at will (since it is not the "beneficiaries" who determine the modalities) a fully dependent payroll and in frontal competition.

* There is therefore a transfer of the cost of the employee to the benefit of the company and to the detriment of the community, as is already observed through various mechanisms, such as the "return to work"
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Re: The universal basic income or income: operating debate

Unread Messageby sen-no-sen » 09/03/17, 10:02

Petrus wrote:There I am no longer, how to ensure basic needs can it make workers more docile?
Rather, if the basic needs are met, the worker will be more likely to send his boss away if his wages and working conditions are not satisfactory.


You answer the question yourself ...
Why demonstrate while basic needs are met?
The masses of protesters are overwhelmingly composed of employees, civil servants, managers (who defend their bread in a rather corporatist manner otherwise ... the SNCF for example)
It is clear that few "RSistes" go down the street, and the long-term unemployed are not among the most virulent political activists ... simple observation.
For the rest, we must not delude ourselves. In a world where the work is paid for, it is a rare thing, but few will be the workers to send their bosses.

Another more societal point this time: the gradual disappearance of the middle classes in favor of a petty bourgeoisie should influence by imitation (a phenomenon already very present!) The masses of working poor who in one way or another will have to accept small Weekly, day-to-day and hourly jobs to allow for a junction to secure a comfortable income.
Docility will thus be instituted via the "comfort pressure".
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Re: The universal basic income or income: operating debate

Unread Messageby sen-no-sen » 09/03/17, 10:04

Ahmed wrote:Note: I think a policy would not say this, but rather in that form - "I had expressed some reservations when this UK measure had been debated, because I thought it was premature and inadequate to the context of the time, today the time has come for this social progress to find its full place in our society and That it makes its contribution ... etc".


You should write political speeches Ahmed, you are talented! : Mrgreen:
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Ahmed
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Re: The universal basic income or income: operating debate

Unread Messageby Ahmed » 09/03/17, 10:29

I thank you for your appreciation, but I do not think that it is a difficult literary genre, once one has understood the general principles governing it (sic) and knowing that it is completely useless to encumber oneself with Any form of sincerity (which provides great flexibility) ... : roll:
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Re: The universal basic income or income: operating debate

Unread Messageby Petrus » 09/03/17, 19:58

sen-no-sen wrote:You answer the question yourself ...
Why demonstrate while basic needs are met?
The masses of protesters are overwhelmingly composed of employees, civil servants, managers (who defend their bread in a rather corporatist manner otherwise ... the SNCF for example)
It is clear that few "RSistes" go down the street, and the long-term unemployed are not among the most virulent political activists ... simple observation.

The number of jobseekers is already higher than the offers and it will not rebalance in the future. There can no longer be a distribution of wealth through labor, the workers will always be in a weak position. They will be able to demonstrate that they will not have anything as is the case at present and if the demonstrations take too great a scale to be repressed immediately, the dominants will organize the chaos and then return the situation to their advantage, adding a turn of screw On the way.

sen-no-sen wrote:For the rest, we must not delude ourselves. In a world where the work is paid for in a way that is rare, very few workers will be sent to graze their bosses.

Another more societal point this time: the gradual disappearance of the middle classes in favor of a petty bourgeoisie should influence by imitation (a phenomenon already very present!) The masses of working poor who in one way or another will have to accept small Weekly, day-to-day and hourly jobs to allow for a junction to secure a comfortable income.
Docility will thus be instituted via the "comfort pressure".

As you say yourself, it is already the case. In general, I do not see how the UK would make the current situation worse, where pressure is not a comfort pressure, but a survival pressure.

If not, what are the alternatives?
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Re: The universal basic income or income: operating debate

Unread Messageby sen-no-sen » 09/03/17, 20:58

Petrus wrote:As you say yourself, it is already the case. In general, I do not see how the UK would make the current situation worse, where pressure is not a comfort pressure, but a survival pressure.


The danger of the UK lies in the idea of ​​accepting the destruction of employment.
It is in this sense a variable of adjustment to the transformations of the anthropotechnical world.
This logic can be found in many areas, such as the ribambelles of charity associations such as the restaurants of the heart, Catholic relief, etc.
Henceforth, everybody finds it normal that such associations exist at the same time or the multinational of the distribution throw thousands of tons of consumables ...

If not, what are the alternatives?


Full employment and its distribution (half time paid full time for women with dependent children eg).
Not so long ago there were so many jobs that even children were forced to work and not 35h / week.
It is the energy flows that crosses our societies that determine the economic structures.
In today's society, the tendency is for monopolies and the saturation of space and time by the economy because of a merciless energy dissipation.
By slowing down its flows we will in fact have a societal reorganization which will lead to a better distribution of the activity.
However, for such a scenario to be realized, it is necessary to introduce consciousness into it, without which our society, driven by its determinisms (the invisible hand), will irremediably tend towards its collapse.
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Ahmed
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Re: The universal basic income or income: operating debate

Unread Messageby Ahmed » 09/03/17, 22:54

Pétrus Rightly points out the power balance unfavorable to employees, which bodes ill for a possible distribution or organization of work. The way out can not be the demand for a "right" to work, which merely refers to the determinisms that are the cause of this inexorable destruction, but only by a positioning outside the categories proper to these determinisms.
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