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New transport: innovations, engines, pollution, technologies, policies, organization ...The hydrogen car RE: The future?

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Fakir
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The hydrogen car RE: The future?

Unread Messageby Fakir » 10/04/12, 19:28

The hydrogen car RE: The future?
Today, I have trouble understanding what are the obstacles to hydrogen technology!
1) 1ère belief: Hydrogen is expensive
2) 2ème dangerous misconception store
3) 3ème belief technologies are not mature!

1) The storage and security
So far, there are two techniques for the storage of H².
The cryogenic method is very cumbersome to implement. It can store 70 kg / M3
The method by high compression 700 bar to store the H² to 43 kg / M3.
These two storage techniques by hydrogen are expensive (energetically and economically), dangerous with a heavy maintenance.
However, this situation has changed. An efficient storage H² Magnesium hydride has been developed: A very French solution: McPhy solution: http://www.lejournaldesfluides.com/actu ... se-solide/
The McPhy storage allows storage 100 kg / M3 of H² at a pressure of 10 bars. H² in the production cycle with a hydrolysis at the same pressure, the company announced a 97% storage efficiency (which is awesome!). McPhy is now down to the series (proto 2008).

2) Economic?
Consumption of a hydrogen car: 7.9 1000 kg per km. Example Mercedes F125. ( http://www.moteurnature.com/actu/2011/m ... ybride.php)

The Nissan Leaf is 160 km with his battery 24 kWh, 15 100 KWh to Km. *
Taking a CAP with a yield of 60% 120 MJ per kg for H², 7.5 1000 km kg is obtained.
This result is close to the consumption announced by Mercedes.
http://www.afh2.org/uploads/memento/Fic ... 202006.pdf

(Sorry for the table layout)
cost H2 Natural gas Coal Biomass Electricity
(HT $ / GJ) 37 36,2 38,9 48,8
(HT $ / kg) 4,44 4,344 4,668 5,856

Production of renewable energy H² comes on about the same cost. This is even cheaper with PV prices today. The big advantage is precisely the process that consumes electricity.
I take an equivalent $ = € 1.3. Is obtained at the pump one kg of Hydrogen 5.4 €.
With gasoline 1 € / L and 6L / 100 km on average conso  € 6 / 100 km
With a hydrogen 5.4 7.9 € and kg / km  1000 4.30 € / 100 km
With an electric kWh 0.01 and 15 kW / 100 1.5 km  € / 100 km (excluding cost of battery life !! 5 years 600 € / kWh or € 14000)
Add the TIPP to please our policies!

3) Conclusion ???
I miss some of the things. We have technologies to run on clean vehicles, quiet, economical with true energy independence.
FYI, the Mercedes F125 stores H² with a magnesium hydride tank: http://www.moteurnature.com/actu/2011/m ... ybride.php
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Unread Messageby Remundo » 10/04/12, 19:40

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Fakir
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Unread Messageby Fakir » 10/04/12, 20:06

Remundo wrote:Hello Fakir,

You must read the work of Ulf Bossel ...

Why year Hydrogen Economy Does not make sense


Thank you for these links. We have the same results, the kWh consumed 3 times more for H².
It does not take into account, in my case, electric vehicle defects:
-The cost of the battery change for power.
-The 8h of battery recharge time to 3 mn
-l'autonomie of 160 1000 km km

Hydrogen does not make us change our lifestyle and it is cheaper than gasoline!
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chatelot16
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Unread Messageby chatelot16 » 10/04/12, 23:47

and you buy your or hydrogen?

nothing that one hydrogen is more expensive than gasoline ... so with storage costs and more it's hopeless

before there was more oil is poura manufacture of artificial flavor ... it has already been done in Germany during the last war

ca is always in south africa

AC is also to transform methane into oil

it seems easier to me what is heavy and complicated in a fixed plant for liquid fuel to run cars and simple legere
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Fakir
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Unread Messageby Fakir » 11/04/12, 00:19

By reading your post, I realize how little teaching my message.

chatelot16 wrote: before there was more oil is poura manufacture of artificial flavor ... it has already been done in Germany during the last war. ca is still in south africa ca is also to transform methane into oil
You mention the Fischer-Tropsch process (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proc%C3%A9 ... er-Tropsch ) Which allowed the Germans to continue to run on gasoline despite the continental blockade. Indeed, the company sudaf Sasol is now a leader in this particular area of ​​the CPL (coil to liquid). CPL is the process that uses coal from our mines to make gasoline. Evoking this process on a site such as econology succession heresy. You should know that it releases into the air CO2 ton more than made ... gasoline course CPL is the most economical way to make gasoline (equivalent to a barrel around € 80). There BTL and LPG. To continue, I should open a new topic, I leave here on the off topic.


chatelot16 wrote:and you buy your or hydrogen?
nothing that one hydrogen is more expensive than gasoline ... so with storage costs and more it's hopeless

In fact the link I posted in my post: http://www.afh2.org/uploads/memento/Fic ... 202006.pdf
Is a study on the establishment of H² die, that is to say, from manufacturing to commissioning station. FYI, full of H² takes 3 minutes.
There are various studies on the method of manufacture. What is really interesting in the H² is the possibility of producing it from water and renewable energy by electrolysis directly in France.
And most importantly, for a lower cost than gasoline.
Today, with a gas 1 € / L and 6L / 100 km on average conso, 100 km covered cost a € 6. With a car in H² we reach for € 4.30 100 km.
The H² is cheaper than gasoline and productivity gains are still important!
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Unread Messageby chatelot16 » 11/04/12, 00:52

the Fischer Tropsch synthesis was used using the coal as both carbon source and energy

it is quite possible to do the same thing with maximum electric or solar power, and not only that use coal for carbon

even better carbon can be from wood or other biomass

there is little hope that the timber has enough alone as a source of energy but as a carbon source to make liquid and easy to use other energy seems to me a way forward

I started work on this system and have already talking about econology ... I tried to find him
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Unread Messageby dedeleco » 11/04/12, 01:15

With algae, instead of wood, oil can be, almost live, and as with anything organic, as I think the easily transportable liquid fuels continue to be used identically, given the current infrastructure.

Fuel oil or saltwater algae does not change anything, easily stored and does not occupy arable land, while recycling the CO2.

Instead of hydrogen there is liquid formic acid as well, for storing hydrogen.

The possibilities from the sun as fuel are huge, especially algae grown in deserts in salt lakes.

This seems profitable than taxes on oil, but we will tax the same H2 !!!
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Unread Messageby chatelot16 » 11/04/12, 01:57

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Fakir
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Unread Messageby Fakir » 11/04/12, 10:28

dedeleco wrote:This seems profitable than taxes on oil, but we will tax the same H2 !!!

Precisely, today it is profitable even with the addition of the TIPP. The calculation gasoline 1 € TTC without TIPP.
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Fakir
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Unread Messageby Fakir » 11/04/12, 10:53

dedeleco wrote:Instead of hydrogen there is liquid formic acid as well, for storing hydrogen.

Here, everything is a performance issue: the topical Obamot, https://www.econologie.com/forums/electricit ... 10849.html Performance is 60%.
Topical McPhy on the storage of magnesium hydride (houps I did not ...), will announce a return of 97%. http://www.lejournaldesfluides.com/actu ... se-solide/
100 kg H² stored in 1 3 to m10 bars.

After, the most interesting is the production of H² intermittently throughout the year with the sun or wind. Photovoltaic electricity is now cheaper than nuclear her cousin but its production is not on demand!
H² solar is the winning combo.
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