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Water injection in engines: montages and experimentsBe together ! Overview

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
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Unread Messageby Bruno13 » 23 / 11 / 04, 14: 12

Hi all,

I post on this thread because I have tried to gather the world on a draft study of the Pantone generator and these people are a bit scattered in France.

Short presentation :
I am an Associate Professor of Mechanical Engineering (modeling, design, manufacturing, automation, materials, ...). I teach at the IUT of Rouen, in the departments Physical Measurement, Thermal Engineering and Energy and Chemical Engineering. So I have at my disposal a wide variety of devices that measure everything and anything. I also have a Citroën turbo-diesel engine, installed on an engine test bed equipped (torque, power, temperatures and pressures at various locations consumption, CO2 emission, noise, ...). It is available and I would like to equip it.

The people I am concerned are:
- A particular handyman and experimenter, who has mounted several Pantone including one on a Renault 6. It is not very available, but it is apparently willing to communicate its results.
- 2 friends who did their studies with me at the ENS Cachan (Normale Sup '), including one that put me in touch with a teacher of Mechanical and Production Engineering IUT of Aix-en-Provence. It has already tinkered a mower engine last year and intends to tackle very soon to a diesel engine.
- 2 teachers My IUT, a mechanic and a heating engineer specializing in combustion.

I logically suggested they join nationnal group and I think they will manifest soon.

Nous avons 2 buts pour le moment :
1) * Proving conclusively that the generator * Pantone improves the functioning of internal combustion engines and if possible quantify this improvement. By doing so properly, we could interest potential partners, or at first contact to be known simply.
2) Comprendre ce qui se passe exactement autour de la barre magnétisée. Quels sont les gaz en présence, leurs proportions, leur influence... ? On pourrait ainsi optimiser le fonctionnement du moteur, surtout dans une utilisation à des régimes variables (typiquement, un moteur automobile).

For now, I traveled quickly various documents, mainly those provided by Quanthomme. If some could enlighten me on this, that it would go faster. I would like to equip the Citroën engine but starting with a solid foundation. I do not want to rediscover what has already been done. My goal is to use it to move forward concretely and significantly.

That's basically the information that I can give for now. You can always contact me for more details. Moreover prefer the e-mail forum, I'm not sure that the time to check it often.

Good day to all.

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Unread Messageby jcf » 23 / 11 / 04, 14: 55

Good and well I come back to a long post because I can not stop thinking about it since I read the mail Christophe!

First some thoughts:

- I do not think the pantone can develop if access to information is chargeable. We heard lots of revolutionary engines, they remained unknown to all because their inventors wanted to pay for information and lobbies that are in front are very powerful. If we look at the PMC, it developed from the time or Pantone made to free information and relay through many websites whose information is free, too (eg Quanthomme.). Also meet in an organization where the information is available only by paying and around an invention not bad in doubt might make us look like a cult.

- All pantoniseurs-yourselfers have amassed knowledge but is sparse. They do not dare communicate over too afraid of being bitten their ideas by someone who wants to sell them. Today, for the newcomer who wants to ride a pantone, then browse tons of web pages and forums to get to derive a set of possible assemblies that he must evaluate one by one to possibly one day rétrofitter reach its engine! We must be aware that today if a manufacturer was interested in pantone, it is in an incredible position of strength because it is sufficient to mobilize a research team a few days to take stock of what we have all désséminé on the web, and could probably easily capture some ideas. (In fact, not just interest builders may simply be that it does not contribute to an HDI engine, and they do not have much interest in what we do take our old carts, not ?).

- We do not need very large research resources right away. Finally, if we look at the number of people employed in the development of the combustion engine from the time that it exists, progress observed in a century is still not folichon ... In fact, what interests us is to know what solutions are walking, how efficiently and without polluting (in fact, we always talk pantone that does not pollute, but its very high level of magnetic radiation it is not super-harmful to humans that are next?).

3 against these thoughts, I'm sure:

- That we need a tool to build our scattered knowledge;

- That we must find a way to protect the information by warnings of the GNU public license type (if lawyers involved in the group, it would be nice they light our lanterns on that ....) to avoid to see our patented ideas and to make everyone feel safe when giving his;

- Que cet outil doit être renseignable par tous, mais qu'un 'noyau dur' soit chargé de la validation de la scientificité des informations entrées et de la structuration de l'information dans l'outil;

- Que pour avoir un maximum d'audience (puisque notre but est de sauver la boule bleue) cet outil doit héberger aussi la connaissance de pantonistes utilisant d'autres langues que la notre (avec à terme peut être la traduction de certains articles d'une langue à l'autre par les plus multilingues d'entre nous);

- Que cet outil doit gérer différent niveaux de confidentialité, afin que ceux qui ont fait des montages performants mais ne souhaitent surtout pas être dérangés puissent quand même faire leur retour d'expérience;

- And finally we would need to manage resources, ie who can do what and for what proposes. I am already less on everyone ever wanted to learn an open base, but perhaps would there way to handle this with privacy levels so that the provider of a resource can decide if anonymously or not it wants to accede to the request of another, or of 'hard core' (one can imagine that some of us have access to measurement benches garages on weekends, for example, or another such skills to improve the central tool, etc.).

=> Typically, in relation to these functions, it seems that the model of the encyclopedia wiki (see eg; <a href='' target='_blank'> http : // </a> is a starting model, because anyone can add an item, if the item looks crappy, others can make a reservation on the article in question, etc. .
This would allow us to cut the pantone sub systems, and everyone can come and add their expertise on each component of Pantone.

It would also be able to mark / organize information according to its status:
- Outstanding issue
- Theoretical answers
- Tests carried out
- Measured results
or something like that. I do not know if it should be integrated in the encyclopedia section or forum section. Let's say that in fact it would be interesting to do is that for example I put a question to the community and therefore my post / and / or my article have the status of "work in progress / question outstanding ".
I receive responses with different solutions and the status is still "work in progress / theoretical answers"
I test solutions, measure the results, publish them on the forum and / or encyclo, and therefore the debate is closed and the status "solution / results."

What do you think? It allows each thread to clearly identify the issue and the solution found to this question.

What would be great is that it works in parallel on two levels: feeding a thread on the forum and enrichment of the encyclopedia on the key steps, ie on issues / possible answers / solution chosen among the possible answers and results, knowing that the other possible answers are legible and therefore are not lost to anyone else.

Why all of this? Because last year I saw many interesting proposals super, but I do not know if anyone tested them and what conclusions he draws (eg, here was proposed a very clever bubbler someone he has tested you, what results?: )

That, I think if anyone can add his knowledge in the database, it will very quickly move forward, and that we will have an increased radiation. Therefore, there is no reason why we could not get private or public subsidies indeed fuel a central organization that would deepen and animate research. (=> One can well imagine that this team is assoc among other mobile equipment (trucks) and crosses the regions of France and Navarre to test the most interesting montages!)

I say private grants, because I think that once or rules have been clearly defined, and it will be well specified anywhere that the knowledge generated here is the open source type, there is no reason for that builders do not start to allocate resources to our research, even if they add privately own technical refinements. I think for example the participation of Apple's Unix core, Apple then adds its own features in OS X.

Je pense que fondamentalement notre projet doit marcher grâce à des subventions. Une fois que nous serons suffisamment fédérés et nombreux, nous pourrons même faire une pétition pour demander au gouvernement/ à l'ADEME que des fonds soient alloués à cette recherche.

Likewise, the call for contributions to each of discretion to run our organization seems to be a good thing, but I think the information supplied is not paid according to the financial contribution of each (remember the considerable impact this project has on the people of Africa who have recovered our old cars ....).

That, I think that's about all for now :P
Sorry ... (looks like the horn of Denisot)

PS: the time I write this post, the post which happened just before fully confirms what I have to say need to add readability us academic research ...
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Unread Messageby snono » 23 / 11 / 04, 15: 24

- Wikipedia: you're absolutely right, it is a good media for information, should see the various modules offered Wiki.

- You are right also for the free access to information, it is obvious.

And overall I quite agree with you.

Bruno13, you seem to take a lot of knowledge and experiences, it'll be util.
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Unread Messageby fred » 23 / 11 / 04, 15: 40

... Good ... good ... good ...: rolleyes:
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Unread Messageby snono » 23 / 11 / 04, 15: 48

... as you say ... :D
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Unread Messageby LibresEnsemble » 24 / 11 / 04, 14: 32

Proposed effective communication on the subject

Do you know what spam ??? no ?
it's simple it is when you receive unsolicited mails to buy a particular product ... for example, "you have one too small? ... then click here it's good for you ..."

Here it is not spam ... it is to inform and not to harass ... I started this morning with this email that I sent to newspapers, ecologists at the site government on the environment, the TV channels, the Nicolas Hulot site ...

Do the same for example once a month (not more) to addresses you find on the web. We need everyone to be informed (TV, local newspapers, associations ... friends ...)


When you post mail, send it to several at the same time ...
eg for newspapers or TV place the address next to each other in order to create competition. For example, if a newspaper realizes that his competitor has received the same email ... then this will be an additional source of motivation of interest see article published ...


Do not copy and paste the message below ... resume, change the ... according to the news of the moment ... the link for the article yahoo for example ... can be changed with a more info recent ...

The trick is to do as the grapevine ... except that here the overall meaning of the message will be retained.

Unity is strength ... PLEASE ... draw attention ...

Here does not appear bold and colors to highlight important ...

-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------
HERE IS THE MESSAGE (in two parts)
-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------

Sorry for the mailing list but this is important

The peakoil what is it?

ça aussi ça devrait vous intéresser

For non-experts ... ...% 20la% 20fin.htm

Thank you to Christian Weiss for this article

Official site
Last little info related to my previous email

Contact ASPO français :
He will answer you quickly. I have him write and it's not an amateur.

Jean Laherrère Worked for TOTAL for thirty-seven years in a variety of successively more responsible roles encompassing exploration activities in the Sahara, Australia, Canada and Paris. Since retiring from TOTAL, Mr. Laherrère HAS Consulted on worldwide oil and gas potential and production. He Has served on the Society of Petroleum Engineers / World Petroleum Congress ad hoc committee is joined definitions of petroleum resources and the Task Force on "Energy Outlook 2010-2020" for the Commissioner General of the Plan.

hence my previous email below



the Commission wants to double the budget for research and development of the Union 30 Billions of dollars 2007-2013 17,5 against in 2001-2006

Okay but there is a solution at present experienced by hundreds of individuals is really very simple and require much less budget and would be much more effective ...

And I do not want you to answer me "if it worked we would know ..."

it works and what it knows ...

try you even go to the field to meet these people that experience to their lower cost solution that ... some have even received visits from industry group the automotive world ...

I just want you to go out of curiosity for a ride on the side of these handymen ... there is one that has made its on defense for his engineering degree from ENSAIS ... ... _Martz.htm


other achievements

With which it works
Fuel + water (in proportion up 20 80% +%)
fuel may be rapeseed or other ...

Small note: if the rape costs 4 times more expensive to produce than gasoline or diesel as well and mixing application 4 times less fuel on average, profitability is equivalent ....

You have to bombard everyone with a mailing campaign ... and sends letters inviting them to log on to this site ... you have to move this system ... it's really serious and I choose my words .

Technical contact:
2 engineers:
- Jean Louis Naudin ->
- Christophe Martz author of the report ->

The report by Christophe Martz has been downloaded 1500 time in two months ... ... es-93.html

another source

experimenters Forum

-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------

It's up to you !!!
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Unread Messageby Christophe » 24 / 11 / 04, 20: 13

Using a bulk email is nice to touch as many people ... but beware this can in some enerver.

For the form, but it is a bit long (well why are t he 2 parties?).

By against 2 remarks:
1) prevent yourself to our emails (Jean Louis and me) in a spamé email ... viruses are so fast ...
2) it would be just right to not send the password by email / spam ... in fact I put this system to retain people and continue to inform thereafter (those who just want the pass is quickly déinscrive ) .... but the pass is given freely as, loyalty is rendered impossible ... It is therefore wiser to instead link to the report page ... besides I change the pass quite regularly (every to the 1 2 months) ...

ps: by definition is a spam email unwanted commercial purpose ... in our case this is not the case ... although the confusion is often made ..
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Unread Messageby LibresEnsemble » 25 / 11 / 04, 11: 11

I understand sorry for the log and pass you can erase the basic ... no problem

C'est en deux partie car au départ j'avais envoyé le mail parlant du système Pantone... et ensuite j'ai ajouté la raison pour laquelle il fallait absolument accélérer le mouvement...

It is true that we can group all in one ...

For your email ... oops ... it just enough to remove the @ and replace it with eg '_aro_' and systems that scan the network pouront recognize an email, it also can change the base I think...

In this email is a first approach ... it will be necessary to make a real text with regular news falling on 'peekoil (a real disaster for the economy - a blessing for the environment)'

For recipients who are likely to get excited ... once a month ... enough ç'est and change occasionally addresses ... it's not necessary to do a mailing to 50 people. .. is too restrictive for the sender ... 10 different every month is not bad ... the goal is to do as the viral marketting ... some propagate the message because sensitized anyway by rising fuel ...

To avoid being cataloged as a Hoax always accompany the email by a list of links titled

"IN THE NEWS in newspapers on television, on the radio ..."
- <a Href='' target='_blank'> chains / France-c ... = 24958 fusion_id </a>
- <a Href='' target='_blank'> php </a>
- <a Href='' target='_blank'> http: //www.lexpress.presse. en / info / economi .... asp? ida = 428814 </a>
- <a Href='' target='_blank'></a >
- <a Href='' target='_blank'> cfm </a>
- <a Href='' target='_blank'> -Oil-is-a ... ve - news102.php </a>

"The PRO speak"
ASPO, an association founded by retired major oil companies ...
denouncing surrestimation reserves that a drop in production is inevitable ...
as you may have already contater followed by an increase in prices at the pump ...
<a href='' target='_blank'> </a>

"Net Folders"
- <a Href='' target='_blank'> </a>
- <a Href='' target='_blank'> </a>

The web is good, the web malls + is even better ...

Thank you anyway for this site ... good luck ...
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Unread Messageby Joe Flachy » 01 / 12 / 04, 11: 13

Bonjour, j'aimerais faire quelque précision sur mon post de la derniere fois :

When I said that the pantone must remain "in the shadows" it is not recess I think he should not be delivered to the public, on the contrary! But word-of-mouth (and the email-to-mail) apparently works more than well, and we just hoped that people who provided the information makes good use.

On the contrary, the establishment of an association (I myself proposed on e-2cv site, there is little time, but I've changed my mind ...) seems increasing the risk: the "sharks".

Also, what is a little assoc really bring? I think the system at ALREADY proven, it works, is that we réelement need to know HOW it works? (And I'm studying science, so ç'est deeper than what we believe pourait :) )

It seems that each engine will need a specific reactor, nothing that due to the free space under the hood, for example, so it is for each "pantoniseur" to adapt.
By cons, gather info, yes, I agree: rolleyes:

With great admiration,
;-) ;-) Joe Flachy
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