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Water injection in engines: montages and experimentsBe together ! Overview

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
jcf
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Registration: 21/11/04, 22:58

Unread Messageby jcf » 21/11/04, 23:23

Hello Christopher,
Econology by reading the news, post me your 'triggers' today, and pushes me first to tell you something that I wanted to tell you for a long time: Thanks for your memory, and for all you did for Pantone, your work is for now the only ones I've found on the Pantone who speak scientifically.

I am interested indeed in Pantone since ... summer 2003, and I must admit that I was beginning to wonder if there was not a wide twaddle when I ended up falling on your memory. This gave me confidence!

I have not read your email on France PMC-list because I stopped reading it for several months. Indeed, the posts are of such a level of draft, it is impossible to quickly read the digest. We must come to reinterpret everything that is written, recomprendre that met what, horror, what this list would definitely needs a good charter and genuine moderators. Yet I read daily multiple lists, but it can unfortunately be done if participants discipline. (Well, I know you is not the moderator, I hope Xavier will read me ...).
For the record, I have a little sort my activities because I am in the final year thesis and I therefore considerable job (no, not a thesis on the Pantone!).

The problem I see with respect to research Pantone is perfectly illustrated by the PMC-France forum: lots of isolated people who go each on their idea with their equipment.

I think that's the same analysis that drove you to what you're proposing today. On the other hand, I do not quite agree with you on how to organize. Indeed, I think that all these people are far from paying 50 to 100 euros for an association. Moreover, the reverse that you had to perform a few months ago on the fact of making pay for access to your memory well illustrated.
Another note, I'm not there I need moultes regional associative structures to operate all these people together!

As suggested by a participant in this thread a little higher, why not take inspiration from the world of open source? I quite agree with you, open source requires only a time machine and the brain time and a priori the people involved had both, which requires, unlike the research engine, no investment.

But if one good look at the motivations of people who participate in the forum, who is he? From a series of experienced tinkerers, curious hackers, more or less fitted with some machines may have access to particular resources in the context of their work, and rather lonely (independent) in their hacks, with the net as unifying element .
Finally, there is relatively little deviation from the open source community.

I think trying to bring them in certain places to give volunteer time on a particular topic (which will necessarily be quite administrative) will lose much of the energy and potential available from these handymen .

I rather feel that as for OpenSource there needs a focal point, virtual, which brings together the energy of all these people, defining priorities, test fixtures, recording performance of each, etc. Ie a structuring element of all micro-research by each of us.

It seems to me that this is really the first step, ie a few people with project management skills that generate cohesion internet tools (like sourceforge!).

The largest functions for this body that I identify as being necessary are:
- The strict definition of the rules of communication and communication of results (. Eg do not announce that rétrofittage works great and the car no longer consume anything after 50 km road !!), charters and systematic screening post any draft discussion lists, etc.
- Prescribing the next test fixtures (eg "should now test the water injection petrol engine on a DC 1400 using mounting No. intel, which does on his car ...?)
- Systematic recording of measurements made by mounting and mounting type.
- Monitoring of resources: eg: so and so, in such a department, a gas analyzer and chooses to make available for testing, so and so has access to mig and wants to weld components for others, etc.
- A basic bug data: it is quite conceivable that some of us are interested in pantone but do not have necessary knowledge and DIY mechanics. They could eventually benefit from the help of other pantoniseurs their region, and in return for this help test their hardware (their cars) solutions implemented by others. Similarly, some non-yourselfers interested but however by the PMC could take care to regularly consult the ADEME agencies and other environmental associations dealing about Pantone, and this needed to create a buzz awareness and the outbreak of grants ...
- Then gradually, broader and go so when the community begins to really have accumulated knowledge and own many projects rolling, I think we can begin to influence policy, but also apply for grants.

It seems that the licenses of LPG are likely to protect all the knowledge we have developed set of opportunistic behavior such patent application (to be validated by one of us having legal expertise).

It is conceivable to think not only on the pantone assembly, but also on the tools 'basic' to start making steps, asking for people with expertise in electronics to develop a small computer single board to implement and allowing at least the measurement of consumption (+ possibly some temperature sensors), but one could also imagine other small simple circuits to yourself to make such a liquid level sensor that makes a start small pump to replenish the bubbler. => So the goal is to create the basic resources, centralize and structure to the maximum each of the knowledge to create interlocking and interchangeable modules allow easy and quick access to the pantonisation as many, so experimentation large scale.

I totally agree that this idea a central body does not have the potential for a big test bed (and again!). But anyway, what association would be able to be created overnight to operate a research center if not on a big political will, and political will if there were, would not you have a job to continue your research to ANVAR (or ADEME, I do not remember)?

I feel that in order to do what you want to do, and that seems to be the right idea in the medium term (although in my opinion the local assoc are not essential at the start, because you can very well work many without a assoc) requires that initially we can show potential funders that there is indeed an effective organization in place, and that the injected money will be used in the best way. This is exactly why I propose that at first we organized thinking and we fédérions our research capabilities, even if they seem insignificant taken separately. No doubt that if every time one of us puts out a pantone, it incorporates a small variation requested by coordinating and book its experience, we could move to a significant extent and without a budget.

We would be the first to my knowledge to manage an open source project on a physical problem !! (moreover it would lead us to the creation of new organizational know-how). I really feel that an open source model, with its robustness and efficiency, is the solution: organization, transparency and LPG should put down suspicions, suspicions, little secrets of each other being afraid of to be dispossessed of an idea that they would have by a cunning seeking to commercialize.

And once it set up, I think we would be in a strong position to negotiate subsidies and interest in our research. For example stupid: there near me an info space energy ADEME. I quickly talked one day with the leader because he was about to leave the market in my village with its information van. I asked him what he was driving. He replied "GPL". You have not tried to pantoniser, 'I asked. His answer was that he knew, but it did not look very serious. Well I understand that and I think we need to demonstrate the seriousness of our organization before asking for money.
It is on the first charge of the ADEME will see on the PMC-list where France is research pantone can not decently decide to devote a grant ...
The same goes for the academic world. I do not think all are the idiot PMC (the evidence you found a good research director). Give them sufficient assurance that there is indeed something to dig so they can engage budgets.

I would see so much in fact a two-dimensional system:
- A collective of hackers DIY-oriented testers via the website of the open-source development and Pantone to make large-scale tests, but with few opportunities for action (consumption, temperatures ?, possibly some life and experiences bugs).
- In a second step, a test bed, managed by the central body, and funded by grants that once this research Pantone will become quite readable.

The first skill is to find the one to start it all, a project manager, and I have a feeling you're gone to be -P.


Thank you for reading this far, I do not speak often, but when I set, brevity is definitely not my strong !!
See you soon,
Jean-Christophe
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krissg29
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Registration: 07/11/04, 21:26
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Unread Messageby krissg29 » 22/11/04, 01:02

Hello,

maybe it could start with a database on Econology classified by short editing or completed
It would be accessible for reading and writing by all participants but writing would be limited to the addition of new data (test results) on a mount or open a new

that you think christophe?

christophe (yes I repeat myself but also my first name)
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snono
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Registration: 22/11/04, 09:37

Unread Messageby snono » 22/11/04, 09:44

I do not have time to read all the posts, I'm at work.

For several years I am intrigued by certain technologies, ca began with stirling, I fall also always at JLN, and lately the magnetic motors and PANTONE.

I am acquiring 2 lawn mowers at Emmaus, or € 80 2 the other, that is cheap.

And I have my "home" I retrofitted, and I tinker me a generator kind Perendev.

I am a computer training and indeed, that's not what makes me vibrate, I educated myself on many other subjects.

I think a federation PMC is a great idea.

I thought distribute PMC plans to exit the supermarkets or things like that, now we can hope to make grouped actions.

Some hope, it does not hurt, thank you to you all.
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fred
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Registration: 11/11/04, 18:30

Unread Messageby fred » 22/11/04, 11:15

I wanted to greet the intervention of JCF, I think its very relevant reflections.
I am also convinced that by putting our energies and accomplishments in common that we will gain in credibility.
If it is large enough to show convincing facing organizations like ADEME, VALBIOM (including for Belgium) or other, for example by moving mass with retroffites vehicles at a small informative event for the general public finances of a bank inevitably follow.
Meanwhile, by working together on the achievements of each, OPEN mode, our personal efforts will be boosted and we will be more motivated to adapt our vehicles or groups and reunite us to celebrate our development.
Industrial certainly also ordered it one day and it will be we hope for the good of all.
However this does not mean that Windows-exists and is paying Linux is prohibited.
And if some are ready then to offer a SERVICE and get paid for it, with a chain RetrofitShops why not? :D
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snono
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Registration: 22/11/04, 09:37

Unread Messageby snono » 22/11/04, 11:43

I read everything.

- MisterLoXo, JCF ... for good reason. Christopher, you did show a lot of courage, a multiple times and you will not lack of initiative and motivation. You merits our respect has ALL.

- Industrial, ca can be us, you, on the other, who do not think has make money. As an entrepreneur (small box of web development), I tell you, if I could hire more easily find grants without the feet and hands (as ANVAR, ADEM will ... are not so receptive to this kind of developpments. I suspected lobbies & Co), although I would create a small structure with well-motivated people to Pantoniser day and night ... this is a false problem. The development of a product and / or its distribution will necessarily by the participation of companies - it may be desirable to keep a human scale.

- JCF is quite right, we need to organize our very effective way information: see sourceforge.org and much more for the organization of data and tracked ...

- And finally, I am sharing an idea that I think be very interresting. This is no backyard I thought you book. I learned recently that the reprocessing of edible oils was very complicated and very expensive. The machine for "dry" oil is dearest and must then make calls to another company to remove dried residues which must then be destroyed by I know what process.
Maybe the development of Pantone could move on several poles. The depollution is particularly important.
I'm not talking about DETERGENTS and products of the building: painting, white spirit, varnish, resin all kinds ... all this must be destroyed in the Pantone.

<Span style = 'font-size: 14pt; line-height: 100%'> Unite </ span>Is the only alternative.

PS: another kind of cooperative work, <a href='http://www.stanford.edu/group/pandegroup/folding/' target='_blank'> http://www.stanford.edu/group/pandegroup / folding / </a> - <a href='http://www.p2p-community.com' target='_blank'> http://www.p2p-community.com </a>

NB Dsl for some spelling mistakes, I think indeed it must write in a clear and structured way in order to be understood.
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snono
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Unread Messageby snono » 23/11/04, 11:00

I have quite the sober last night in front of a glass of Sky.

I have read on this and what inspires me ca - Attention, I send a little loose, but I'm still at work then it's just notes:
- The association could serve as centralizing information, equipment, various services. The association will manage the web server to centralize data, serve as central purchasing for the adherents researchers can benefit from the negotiated wholesale price by the association.
It will learn about the legal forms that exist for associations, also know how it goes for VAT ... I have a few friends doing right that could enlighten us.
The association will also take care of all mediatic aspect, mailing, advertising ...

- To pay membership contribution structure making available of adherents (see above). Thus the adherents enjoy the progress of each and shall enjoy certain advantages for the development in material and resources available.
=> The goal remains to advance the project Pantone

The association should remain national with several research and development groups distributed throughout France. It will be necessary to think of representatives in order to be able to provoke assemblies giving rise to votes for the investments and orientations of the association.

=> The project becomes Opensource because we have the brains and the material -> there is no longer the problem of retribution because there is more monnetaire advance it remains only for personal investment which corresponds to the true values ​​of a non-profit organization. These are the values ​​that must all encourage us to develop the project and make the Pantone know and use many.

Warning: If the system does not please me and I seek personal gain, I do not have my place in the Association because it is recalled that "The goal is to save the world"

- The rules must be defined for the organization of information on the centralized site. Project frames containing the list of equipment, time realizations, implementing the changes to come ...
We can find on the site the list of ongoing projects with their specificities as well as information on the research groups that are on the development, participating with their skills and their location, as has already begun. The information will be crossed for a better exchange and a quick read

=> In the end, the majority can become adherent and therefore develop and enjoy the strucuture association
=> Full Pantone everywhere and many adherents. One can indeed achieve Pantone friends, some tinkering, others not but everyone is adherent and rolls Pantone.

This is what I learned from everything I've read and what my inspiration livery me.
Now we have to define many things.

What do you think ?
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fred
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Unread Messageby fred » 23/11/04, 11:31

snono, I do not know what the Sky, but Sky is a door to infinity :D
Very good, but you say:
The association should remain national ...
Personally, I live in Belgium ...
and as you say also:
It will be recalled that "the goal is to save the world"
Is there no way to work at the European level and why not global?
There are a lot of francophones who read this site in the world and certainly as many motivations.
Thank you for your contribution and your good ideas.
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snono
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Unread Messageby snono » 23/11/04, 11:43

You're right, we need national associations by country and federer internationally.

sky = whiskey :P
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Adrien
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Unread Messageby Adrien » 23/11/04, 11:57

For my part I am not for A combination, I prefer to either find another way, or so many associations ...

For fred, sky it must be alcohol.

snono, there are different things that genes me:

the association could serve as centralizing information, equipment, miscellaneous services

as doing so well that word, equipment, material that is ..! Where will it be located? Knowing that not everyone lives next ...

The association should remain national with several research groups and development distributed throughout France.

National? Borders are in our heads! The project must be accessible to everyone worldwide, and btw many do not have the means to pay dues every year ...

It will reflect on representatives in order to cause the resulting assemblies are votes for investments and directions of the associations.

Some will still be disadvantaged once ... A forum like that would be enough I think everyone is equal (except those who have not the net, but others can speak for them ...)

I have to go,
to soon, Adrian.
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snono
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Unread Messageby snono » 23/11/04, 12:11

as doing so well that word, equipment, material that is ..! Where will it be located? Knowing that not everyone lives next ...

The goal is to take advantage of better prices for the achievements, each group will make its order. The price should be largely reduced, the goal is not to have a free Pantone engine, ca is not possible, but that development costs are absorbed by the association. shipping costs also could be absorbed.

National? Borders are in our heads! The project must be accessible to everyone worldwide, and btw many do not have the means to pay dues every year ...

I quite agree, extending it. Let us however not drowning in the implementation of the administrative. The citizens of each country geront implementation in their country and we coordinate at European and more.

Some will still be disadvantaged once ... A forum like that would be enough I think everyone is equal (except those who have not the net, but others can speak for them ...)

Why ? Imagine a group of people 3, he will be able to be represented by one of its members according to their availability. This must be deepened recess well, but the goal is that everyone has a say, at first I think most of the adherents will move anyone, but when it will have gained momentum they can choose to be represented. Finally I preferred to represent me, to tell the truth the vote does not give a specific power that adhere to the vote in the Assembly, it is just matter of proxy.


Note that the profits which could be then generated by the activity of the association will purchase and redistribution of material almost free.
Do not dream, Noel pere does not exist, everything can be offered, the membership will not reap enough money to feed everyone without extra particpation, but with time, the structure of the association surely allow this kind of action.
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