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Hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ...Rehabilitation of a hydraulic mill

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dellastrada
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Rehabilitation of a hydraulic mill

Unread Messageby dellastrada » 19/06/18, 23:21

Hi all,

I am new on this forum and I am also fortunate to be new propiriétaire of a small mill with a right of water.
This forum is a mine of passionate information that I have devoured lately.
However, I did not find all the information I was looking for, or rather, there is too much to be sorted out for my case, which is why I allow myself to open a new thread.

The site has a lot of assets to reduce our energy dependence. Without talking about autonomy.
To put it simply, we hung up on the purchase of the mill, which means that all the work and development will be done in a drop-wise manner over a long time, but especially as much as possible in self-construction with good ideas that are easily achievable. . This does not mean, however, not having a prospective and global vision.

I intend to make the most of the energy potential of the site, but I also feel like I'm missing out on some of them. I ask the most advanced of you to tell me what they think

It is an old agricultural mill on the edge of a small mountain stream (Puy de Dome) with 1 hectares of rugged terrain bordering wooded areas. The mill was still in operation until the end of the 80 years. He exploited only the hydraulic force. At the death of the last miller, his descendants were largely transformed into a dwelling. So getting rid of most machines and mechanisms. The water circuit has never stopped working and is intact. It feeds on the one hand a water hole with a forced pipe diameter of 200 mm where there was a horizontal turbine that rotated an oil wheel and secondly a augers wheel that propelled a grinding wheel. There is neither the horizontal turbine nor the wheel. Only the oil mill remained in place as well as the shaft and the wooden gears. For the rest it's a jumble of gables, lanterns and straps that make up a giant puzzle to reconstruct. A cable connected to the electric meter had been installed by the former owner to produce electricity through a turbine that he wanted to install in the water chamber. The project remained at the idea stage. The mill is located in the cellar of the current dwelling.

As far as hydrometry is concerned, last December I calculated a flow rate of 90l / s and 3m50 of waterfall. Which represents a theoretical power of 3Kw. A turbine coupled to a generator can theoretically provide 2,6 kwh continuously.

hydraulic

My intention is to produce electricity in self-consumption, at first to heat the sanitary water. A transformer will surely come later to extend the electricity production to the entire consumption of the house. Being careful, I can at least run a washing machine if I do not turn on a toaster at the same time.

What about surplus electricity?
Rather than unnecessarily heating an already hot water heater I thought to evacuate the surplus of the networks by heating a network of secondary water to heat a greenhouse with a cooling pool before returning the water in the river. We are in a mountain area and keeping certain crops frozen would be a blessing. By cons the summer we heat what?

Then there remains an unexploited potential which is that of the kinetic energy of the second waterfall. Is it possible to exploit it without having to rebuild a wheel? I searched and found no answers.

I intend eventually to be able to mechanically re-engineer the mechanical energy. Traditionnellent energy was used to grind or beat plants to make all kinds of things. Or to operate machines such as sawmills.
I did not find any other applications that could be useful to me and I got into the idea of ​​installing a Dutch battery to make paper made from chanvree and other vegetables that I can cultivate. If anyone has an idea of ​​genius that he has proposed.

I thought it might be interesting also to use the water to drive a hydrolic motor that would turn the old oil grinder again. Someone already has experience with this type of mechanics?

Heating


The river being very cold in the winter, I gave up the water / air heat pump. Being in a forest area and having plots of wood at my disposal, biomass seemed to me to be the best option. The main heating will be provided by a wood stove with heat storage, combution logs / pellets. In a second time I thought to install a boiler on the stove (optional) to heat the parts of the houses that will not benefit from thermal diffusion with a heated floor. There would still be a lot to do and say in terms of insulation to improve the heat balance. This may be the subject of another topic.

If anyone has any suggestions in general, I am prenneur. Even though I am more and more interested in all his subjects, I feel more able to write a poem than to calculate a power of charge. A lot of things have probably not come to my eyes yet.

Last but not least, if someone is interested in doing experiments in my small open-air laboratory, I'm open to the idea.
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Re: Rehabilitation of a hydraulic mill

Unread Messageby Remundo » 20/06/18, 00:12

by curiosity, what is your drop height and your flow?

must see whether to incur costs or not too much ...
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dellastrada
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Re: Rehabilitation of a hydraulic mill

Unread Messageby dellastrada » 20/06/18, 00:37

dellastrada wrote:As far as hydrometry is concerned, last December I calculated a flow rate of 90l / s and 3m50 of waterfall. Which represents a theoretical power of 3Kw. A turbine coupled to a generator can theoretically provide 2,6 kwh continuously.


It's not huge but enough for self-consumption. Resale would not be profitable anyway.
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Sylvester spiritus
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Re: Rehabilitation of a hydraulic mill

Unread Messageby Sylvester spiritus » 23/06/18, 17:59

Hello Dellastrada,

For having lived a somewhat similar situation twenty years ago, I spend some tips that you may be useful:

- to estimate at best the water potential of the site, the former DIREN (now grouped at the DREAL) has hydrographic measurement stations that make it possible to estimate the flow per watershed in winter and during low water periods and reported at km2 of watershed.
Even if the station is far downstream, the service engineers can give the trends of the creek concerned, then simply calculate the area of ​​the watershed upstream of the site with an IGN map to 1 / 25000 to get an idea of ​​the flow real stream over the year.
It also allows you to get an idea of ​​possible nuisances upstream ...

- for the calculation of the available power, it is rare that the efficiency (turbine and generator) reaches or exceeds 80%.
the formula: P = flow (m3 / s) x height (m) x 9,81 X 0,8O is the optimistic version (to be weighted from -5% to -10% to be more realistic)

- climatic hazards are more and more frequent, so we must be careful:
- the flow observed at time T as this extremely rainy winter that does not correspond to the reality of 15 last years.
- centenarian floods that will be devastating if they are not anticipated (do not stop at 20-40 years back as unfortunately observed for new constructions due to lack of space available)

- To install a turbine, the steps are facilitated if the mill is founded title cad prior to the revolution. It must appear on 1829's Cassini cards and not have had its modified water circuit (doing a search at departmental archives is sometimes very instructive)
Beware, however, the flow reserved in the stream and the free movement of fish which may require the construction of an expensive fish ladder).
The acidity of the water must also be taken into account for the corrosion of the turbine and the upstream defencher (obligatory at the fall of the leaves or during the floods if one does not want to risk to break the turbine by the vegetable debris)
Frost in a cold river is also to be taken into account: a friend works on a river whose bottom begins to freeze from -10 ° C for a week; to say that it is almost impossible to rely on hydroelectric heating in these conditions.
One last thing: to install a turbine in a place dedicated to the home can be source of nuisances (vibrations, noise, ..)

There would still be so much to say but if these parameters are already integrated, there will be little disillusionment thereafter ...

cordially

Ps: Rather than heating water in a greenhouse that will cause significant condensation and disease problems, it may be preferable to install a Cevenol well (or Canadian well, Provençal well) that will recover calories soil and ventilate the greenhouse as needed.
An internal water basin ensures a certain thermal inertia while limiting condensation.
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dellastrada
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Re: Rehabilitation of a hydraulic mill

Unread Messageby dellastrada » 24/06/18, 15:51

Thank you for the good advice.

A number of its parameters are already integrated, they are in any case taken into account as and when I am informed.
Sylvestre spiritus wrote:- to estimate at best the water potential of the site, the former DIREN (now grouped at the DREAL) has hydrographic measurement stations that make it possible to estimate the flow per watershed in winter and during low water periods and reported at km2 of watershed.
Even if the station is far downstream, the service engineers can give the trends of the creek concerned, then simply calculate the area of ​​the watershed upstream of the site with an IGN map to 1 / 25000 to get an idea of ​​the flow real stream over the year.
It also allows you to get an idea of ​​possible nuisances upstream ...


I will get closer to the DREAL. I had no idea how to calculate the reserved flow.
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Re: Rehabilitation of a hydraulic mill

Unread Messageby chatelot16 » 24/06/18, 20:13

the flow and the height of fall gives the power: it is weak, it is not a big turbine, it would rather be a water pump turned into a turbine

what to do with electricity in rab? not sure that there is often rab ... it is necessary to see the surface of retetenue above the barage, and the possibility to vary the level ... it is frequent in this kind of small mill to be able to retain water for a day and turbinate much more than average power when needed

often this kind of mill could not turn the millstone for a whole day ... we stopped when the level had dropped too much

to make electricity it is necessary a regulator which opens or closes the admission of water according to the need of electricity
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Sylvester spiritus
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Re: Rehabilitation of a hydraulic mill

Unread Messageby Sylvester spiritus » 26/06/18, 21:46

chatelot16 wrote:the flow and the height of fall gives the power: it is weak, it is not a big turbine, it would rather be a water pump turned into a turbine


Indeed, with an observed rate of 90 l / s in December, do not expect miracles for the rest of the year ...
With a small banki type turbine (upgraded to Ossberger to adapt to seasonal flow variation); you can, in my opinion, hope to come out between 1000 and 2000 watts in normal period and almost nothing during low water (except floods).
This is within the reach of a good handyman or better, it is a project that could interest a teacher passionate about a technical high school for the practical and educational ... : Idea:
http://www.codeart.org/pdf/dossier/2005 ... -banki.pdf

Best regards.

Ps: About pedagogy and the advice and encouragement of my entourage and people of passage, I created a site to share the little knowledge acquired over the years and the passion that drives me to live and work at the water's edge.
I always leave time for the fans of passage ...
https://acluzac.wixsite.com/lemoulindecluzac
(The videos of otters and other wild fish lovers come mostly from the photo-video trap installed in the diversion pool at less than 50 m from the mill).
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dellastrada
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Re: Rehabilitation of a hydraulic mill

Unread Messageby dellastrada » 01/07/18, 20:42

The relets of the tax registers indicate 70l / s and a height of thing of 4 meters as well as an administrative power of 4m. It is possible to raise the threshold to increase the flow during low water periods. Counting 80% to 70% the capacity of the turbine to restore power, I was hoping to get at least 2,5 kw / h. Everything will depend on the choice of the turbine of the exact calculation of the flow curves. I'll know more soon. Thank you for your informative answer that I will study. The manufacture of the turbine seems to me above my current skills in this area.
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