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SixK
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Bread, its history, the reflection of our society

Unread Messageby SixK » 22/05/18, 01:31

A particularly interesting article about bread, its history and what the bread tells about our societies to read here:
http://www.pains-tradition.com/le-pain- ... malbouffe/

And for those who would want to make bread after this article (Belgians in the room?), A modop / sharing experience here:
https://korben.info/comment-faire-du-pa ... ement.html

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Re: The bread, its history, the reflection of our society

Unread Messageby Janic » 22/05/18, 08:54

A particularly interesting article about bread, its history and what the bread tells about our societies to read here:
http://www.pains-tradition.com/le-pain- ... junk food/
nice plea! Unfortunately the industrial lobbies are too powerful for a global awareness of the people can be done, as their skull stuffing is powerful.
And for those who would want to make bread after this article (Belgians in the room?), A modop / sharing experience here:
https://korben.info/comment-faire-du-pa ... ement.html
unfortunately, that is the demonstration of the contradiction between this beautiful plea and the reality of such a recipe. This product obtained is not more real bread than that obtained industrially except that this industrialization becomes that of the housewife or his housekeeper.
In fact, bread baked with baking or chemical yeast has the same drawbacks, namely rapid fermentation that will only swell the dough (a stroke of a bicycle pump) and not this slow change due to the natural ferments of leaven that will transform phytic acid into phytate only process that prevents demineralization.
http://www.boulangerie.net/forums/bnweb ... ytique.php
so the first site indicated: yes! The second: no! :|
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Re: The bread, its history, the reflection of our society

Unread Messageby izentrop » 23/05/18, 00:54

Janic wrote:nice plea! Unfortunately the industrial lobbies are too powerful for a global awareness of the people can be done, as their skull stuffing is powerful.
It is good war for a baker to decry industrial bread.
He writes: "Today, virtually all strains are of GMO origin." This is true in the sense that wheat grown since the beginning of agriculture has been genetically manipulated by humans for its own benefit. is just the techniques that have evolved.

"All of these enzymes are not reportable and yet they are certainly one of the major sources of the many allergies seen today." The sources of this hat claim are missing : Wink:

"In the Middle Ages, the dentitions were in very bad condition simply because of the small pieces of stone that were in the loaves." I tried to find out more and it's not entirely true:
It is estimated that one kilogram of bread was consumed per day (Laurioux 2002). That's why the bread was
made responsible for the significant wear of the teeth of the population of the Middle Ages. In this case, as
for others, it has often been explained that the stone powder torn from the soft grinders infested the
flour (Leek, 1973). Although most modern breads are made from the same cereals as
those of the Middle Ages (oats, barley, rye, and of course wheat), our breads are more refined and are thus less
abrasives while their higher starch content makes them soft.
In fact, the bread that keeps the shell of the grains is too rich in silica and its consumption by the
peasants of the Middle Ages used their teeth with extreme rapidity, the particles of millstones coming
aggravate the situation. https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01117308/document
Janic wrote:In fact, bread baked with baking or chemical yeast has the same drawbacks, namely rapid fermentation that will only swell the dough (a stroke of a bicycle pump) and not this slow change due to the natural ferments of leaven that will transform phytic acid into phytate only process that prevents demineralization.
This is not entirely true either. It is a question of long fermentation and in this case, the process of reduction of phytates also works with yeast
Phytic acid is often portrayed as an "anti-nutrient" because it impedes the assimilation of minerals. However, it also has beneficial properties, which have been highlighted in a comprehensive study published in the journal Food Chemistry (Kumar ea, 2010). For example, phytic acid is a powerful antioxidant that helps the body protect itself from cell degeneration. It could therefore play an anticarcinogenic role. There is some evidence that phytic acid also has a protective effect against diabetes, atherosclerosis, cardiovascular disease, kidney stone formation and HIV toxicity. https://www.painetsante.be/professionne ... e-et-sante
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Re: The bread, its history, the reflection of our society

Unread Messageby Janic » 23/05/18, 09:08

It is good war for a baker to decry industrial bread.


Sir, I know everything that brings her back again!
It is not the industrial bread alone that is questioned, but the entire food chain of this product: the high-yielding industrial varieties at the expense of its intrinsic quality by productive selections (hence allergies such as gluten that appear coincidentally at this time), the fast steel roller milling mode replacing the stone mill (and its structural losses in the flour, which is a real argument to its disadvantage); sieving to recover the its for agricultural use (cattle would need this fiber and nutrients, but not us even as all the medical literature recognizes the important role, major dietary fiber) recovery of the germ sold dear in dietetics as super food ( so!), bread making with the baker's yeast more and more replaced by the chemical, etc ... and in fact the increase of the cardiac pathologies subséq uential.
You arrive with a burnt beak, citing "professional" references that depend on the large agricultural groups that give them a finished product and that they have no choice but to refuse. It is "good" (misguided word) war, indeed, it is therefore up to the consumer to make his choices (as it is left the possibility!)

He writes: "Today, virtually all strains are of GMO origin." This is true in the sense that wheat grown since the beginning of agriculture has been genetically manipulated by humans for its own benefit. is just the techniques that have evolved.


Another big pellet confusing GMO and selection of varieties with high productive potential. GMOs and hybrids are recent laboratory manipulations that do not date back to the beginnings of agriculture.

"All of these enzymes are not reportable and yet they are certainly one of the major sources of the many allergies seen today."The sources of this statement from the hat are missing


Neither you, nor the sites that you indicate are scientifically referenced and there is not only internet as sources and references, there is also and for a long time books (maybe you do not know what it is because I take it off my hat!), an abundant polemical literature on the subject (like vaccines from elsewhere that rub shoulders historically) that opposes the pros and cons, but also the populations who have made a blind trust (by constraint) and who wake up progressively from their lethargy and who accept less and less these dictates of industrialists as rulers by this awareness. Except you obviously! : Cheesy:


Phytic acid is often portrayed as an "anti-nutrient" because it impedes the assimilation of minerals. However, it also has beneficial properties, which have been highlighted in a comprehensive study published in the journal Food Chemistry (Kumar ea, 2010). So, for example, phytic acid is a powerful antioxidant that helps the body protect itself from cell degeneration. It could therefore play an anticarcinogenic role. There is some evidence that phytic acid also has a protective effect against diabetes, atherosclerosis, cardiovascular disease, kidney stone formation and HIV toxicity. https://www.painetsante.be/professionne ... e-and-health

There it is the end of the end! The mass argument! Yes phytic acid is also a powerful antioxidant (and it took time for this role of antioxidants to be officially recognized as important for many pathologies), but an isolated product is not enough to credit a system. Mushrooms also have excellent compounds, nutrients of all kinds, but some are not profitable because of their toxicity related to little in truth, alkaloids, and yet some animals are not sensitive. It is thus generally and not in a chemical way, isolated, that a product, a component, can be profitable or on the contrary present disadvantages that will be measured by experience, not in industrial theories. Thus, these bleached industrial flours favored the development of pathologies including 2 hyper alpha hemogliase favoring cardiovascular diseases, which is contradictory with the affirmation of the site in question.

For the toxicity of HIV, antioxidants are used mainly to fight against the toxicity of drugs that one makes ingest to pseudo contaminated. There, too, when people wake up from their conditioning their trust in the systems will be reduced accordingly, although by then we will find something else to make them scared and to keep them dependent.
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Re: The bread, its history, the reflection of our society

Unread Messageby izentrop » 23/05/18, 09:23

Janic wrote:people who have trusted blindly (by constraint) and who wake up progressively from their lethargy and who accept less and less these dictates of manufacturers as rulers by this awareness. Except you obviously!
I prefer to trust the results of research done with the scientific method and you charisma characters who pull their information from the hat, each his choice. No need to denigrate and preach, it is the intellectual honesty that counts.
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Re: The bread, its history, the reflection of our society

Unread Messageby Janic » 23/05/18, 09:49

Janic wrote:
people who have trusted blindly (by constraint) and who wake up progressively from their lethargy and who accept less and less these dictates of manufacturers as rulers by this awareness. Except you obviously!

I prefer to trust the results of research done with the scientific method and you charisma characters who pull their information from the hat, each his choice. No need to denigrate and preach, it's intellectual honesty that counts.
: Cheesy: : Cheesy: , stop it hurts to laugh! You do not even have to be able to distinguish between what can be a real scientific method and the simple commercial communication and therefore the intellectual honesty in question.
A true scientist is not a scientist who claims to know everything about everything, but someone who (when he is truly independent, ie when there are no huge industrial interests to the key ), compares, verifies and rechecks the validity of his research and does not hesitate, depending on the increase in knowledge, to question himself and sometimes it takes a long time for that.
The transition from traditional milling to cylinder milling could not predict all the consequences of this change and the researchers of that time could not anticipate these, but it's been a century since it lasted and the scientific works independent just warn against the pernicious effects it has generated in terms of diseases that followed. Unfortunately, when the machine is launched it is difficult to stop it, at least brutally, and that is why the return to an agriculture turned really towards its initial purpose which is to produce to maintain the health of the populations, not to poison them. by all these inputs, these destructive industrial processes, and therefore the change of society is done, and will be, slowly as and when awareness of the population and their lived experience in this area, through fewer poisonings and therefore fewer subsequent diseases.
It is only to see, the number of more and more important bakers who turn to organic leavened breads and others to traditional breads. The wheel turns and latecomers, conservatists, complain but a little late.
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Re: The bread, its history, the reflection of our society

Unread Messageby izentrop » 23/05/18, 21:49

You should see this:
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Re: The bread, its history, the reflection of our society

Unread Messageby Janic » 24/05/18, 08:25

You should see this:
A big bunch of nonsense and counter truths and especially when it deals with alternative medicine towards 30 'and more, or reveals its flagrant ignorance of the subject, we understand that this corresponds to your approach, legitimate in itself as for any belief unfounded, but ignorance does not make it any more intelligent. It is a collection of false science, of absurdities that he wants to pass for a scientific rationality in fact he practices what he blames for what does not correspond to his beliefs, but it is his right as for all fakes news.
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"We do science with facts, as is a house with stones, but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" Exnihiloest
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Re: The bread, its history, the reflection of our society

Unread Messageby Janic » 24/05/18, 09:04

so:
For example 54 ': " and our perception which is conditioned by our environment, our culture, etc ... the testimonials are clues which must lead us to experiment things, to confront them to reality, to test them as best as possible, unless you are extremely rigorous easily confuses correlation and causality, we believe things by a priori, we trust opinions of authority that are not and we are motivated by the false logic of fear, etc ... »
Totally agree with him on this point! Except that authority opinions are different depending on the sources used. Thus the opinions of an aviation engineer will necessarily be different than those of a submarine engineer and yet they have the same professional title, the authority that is authoritative but in different areas that can not be confused. Hence his misunderstanding to understand homeopathy (and other so-called alternative medicines) with the non-adapted tools of allopathic medicine that he holds for the one and only, the true truth out of which there is no salvation as the Catholic Church said (we break everything and we take the same!)
Thus, in medicine, this mechanism of fear can be applied to influence the decision of the patient, in the desired direction, for this or that therapy. " Nothing new under the sun " here again.
"If you are wondering how homeopathy can work on a dog I refer you to the story of Hans el Cheval ..."
And why not Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs?
And here it becomes the final bouquet:
« we are fundamentally irrational beings and how it is (they are!) made clothes to adapt to hostile environments, we must make methods to be able to verify the information, we must develop the best possible methods to avoid the traps of everything that appears in our lives at a given moment .... Amen! Except that he does not apply this philosophy to himself in as long as being fundamentally irrational.
So just good for the trash of false information running on the net!
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"We do science with facts, as is a house with stones, but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" Exnihiloest
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izentrop
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Re: The bread, its history, the reflection of our society

Unread Messageby izentrop » 24/05/18, 11:24

Hello,
At least you listened, but you have to get out of your usual way of thinking.
To understand You need training on critical thinking.
Janic wrote:For example 54 ': "and our perception that is conditioned by our environment, our culture, etc ... the testimonials are clues that must lead us to experience things, to confront them to reality, to test them as best as possible, to less than being extremely rigorous, we easily confuse correlation and causality, we believe things by prerogative, we trust the advice of authority who are not and we are motivated by the false logic of fear, etc ... "
Totally agree with him on this point! Except that authority opinions are different depending on the sources used. Thus the opinions of an aviation engineer will necessarily be different than those of a submarine engineer and yet they have the same professional title ...
Well no, it is not the status of the person who counts, but the veracity of his remarks, which must correspond to the consensus established by the profession of the cited professional.
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