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Water injection: understanding and scientific explanationsPerforming a test bench

process of understanding: the assembly of ideas, research, analysis ... physicochemical aspects.
Camel
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Unread Messageby Camel » 17/11/04, 00:19

Salutations to all !

I already posted this message on the PMC forum, but was blocked a week, and I have only just discovered this forum ... Quanthomme

I don? Have to? S time produced nothing very concrete on this forum I am with interest long ago.
I am one of the "silent participants" and their like, I shall speak in general when I? Ve something to say?

It? S the case aujourd? Hui, I just put in the file section of the PMC forum Pdf made and calls Project? Pantone.pdf assessment of the reactor.

It? S the result of my cogitations, nourished? S hours of reading in this forum and elsewhere, from my own experiences in research and in industrial electronics development (although this n? Is my business lately?).

Reading your messages confirms the merits of these reflections.

Unfortunately, my main priority activity and, for the? Moment? S music! And I'm frustrated not to experiment, by cons, I? Ve ideas and suggestions to make to the group.

I? Ve read passionately debate that triggered Christophe, with his bombshell. D? Especially that? At that moment, I? Was at a point in my reflections on the development of? A test bench Pantone where m? Seemed obvious that? Such work required that we seriously reflect on how we cooperate in fact.

We each have skills, whatever they are. And that's good, since this project is multidisciplinary. Everyone can find his place. And paf, Christophe balance his letter? Right in the middle! I therefore fully agree with the idea that we are organizing ourselves. Especially since this project fits perfectly with the idea of ​​federating our forces. To be concrete, here is the type of organization that we could put in place:

In terms of the framework, I will look for the? Association 1901 law. It? S not expensive, you can have a bank account (mainly replenished by the adherents and donations). This association would object, for example, reducing waste and pollution, and consumption of fossil fuels. She would essential task of managing a website open to members, providing them with all the facilities for access to documents, make contributions, (skills, material, financial, logistics?) And organize work.

It must indeed consider the fact that we are scattered throughout France and beyond (not true Quebecers? J)
We must therefore organize groups by region, possibly not too distant.
That said, the problem arises neither for hardware nor for? Money that ship very well.

Theoretically, an association can apply for grants, but I think in our case, it? S even bother? S thinking. Everything will be done on our own funds (? S rest of the guarantee of our independence?)

To go one step further in the concrete, I would even say that? A guy like Christophe, a young engineer has already completed a test bench with a priori many of the necessary skills, the more Ouach, could very well be financially supported by a grant system, and logistically, with all the equipment needed to send it to the lab, to allow him to drive the manipulation, the urge? using PMCiste, and doggone forward, forward!

Well, I m? Packs, but I think, given our resources, which are not those of multinationals, it would be good to save us reinventing the wheel, and appoint some people to work on any part of the device .
If? You want to do a test bench, it will be necessary at a time, centralize everything. The parts can be manufactured by well Doe who can weld? S stainless steel that? Telautre to providing the manipulation management program, etc. But in the end, all that will be assembled in someones? A, with a minimum of knowledge, surrounded if necessary? Others in the group for starting the manipulations.

I? Ve taken? S example of Christopher, but I think that? It? S not the only eligible candidate, fortunately (this forum is rich, I tell you!).

I'd be happy to read your reactions to this message.

My real name? S Michel Lathuraz but in the forum, j? Uses another for not making me bombarded with spam?

Cogitations good, friendly,

Michel
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krissg29
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Unread Messageby krissg29 » 17/11/04, 23:38

hi Michel

I'm new to the forums and just read your testbed project.

I have a few suggestions, perhaps not wise from a new ... but good! I'll try to put it in order.

I saw in one of the answers that the fan "blowing" should be a fan of "aspiration" because the reactor is supposed to be rather depressed. I think 2 systems should be "essayables" quite to have some extra plumbing. On the Pantone plan with bubbling by exhaust gas, it is unclear to what extent they blow (inflate?) In the bubbler. Anyway, it would be interesting to know if the reactor works better in pressure or vacuum and with air or an inert atmosphere (in addition to water or fuel or 2).

Many say that we should not heat the water bubbler over 80-90 ° to avoid evaporation Why? Why make a misting system (tiny droplets of liquid water) instead of steam? gas would normally easier to process in a liquid reactor. And if that is not the case: why?
(Actually that's more questions than suggestions!)

I will not belabour the glass tube, I do not know the resistance of the material. But if the reactor should be of steel, the feeding tube (cold) may perhaps be of transparent material (plastic?). It would see the plasma.

And if the carbon and iron steel reactor played a role in the decomposition of water or in the creation and maintenance of plasma? I know that there are stainless steel reactors that work, but if I remember my metallurgy courses stainless steel is a low iron but still carbon. Is it that there are people who have found a stem wear over time?

Your temperature measurements made by thermocouples and mounted the way you are only possible if the reactor tube is glass (electrical insulator). But I do not know what is measured by a set of pairs mounted on the same electrical Reference (stem) which take different temperatures along its length. Do the different couples will not influence each-other? I confess that I have no idea to replace thermocouples except infrared.

For the heating part, I see nothing shocking

There should also be able to experiment with different sizes for the reactor and its stem as intended by Christophe Martz on his bench.

I hope this is a constructive analysis, and if everyone gives ideas, it should be thinking about (almost) everything.

In any case your test bench seems to me to be an exellent working basis.

Good continuation.

Christophe
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Superform
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Unread Messageby Superform » 18/11/04, 08:46

Hello,

I'm the author of the reply to PMC-France ...

about the temperature in the bubbler, do not generate steam. Why ? because it is likely to reconsenser quickly. the ideal is a natural evaporation, which condenses slower.
The reaction is improved when it is dry steam entering the reactor and steam (heated water) is wet steam (Christophe Martz you correct me if I say a stupidity)
Misting, if done well, allows these tiny droplets of naturally evaporate on contact with the air (maybe a little heated if the droplets are suppérieures a few microns), so having dry steam. ..

about the role of carbon and steel, from all evidence, there is no wear or alteration of a iron rod. Someone even suggested that iron is reconstituted immediately after the reaction, but at that time there would asperities because it is impossible that is reconstituted at the exact same place ... In addition, it is recommended having a stem and a smoother inner surface possible, it may not be for nothing ... according to some it would be to facilitate the transition to the plasma state ...

Seb.
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Unread Messageby Christophe » 21/11/04, 11:44

I questioned the document on econology:

<a href='https://www.econologie.com/download.php?lng=fr' target='_blank'> https://www.econologie.com/download.php?lng=en </a>

ou

<a href='https://www.econologie.com/file/restricted/Projet_evaluation_reacteur_pantone.pdf' target='_blank'> https://www.econologie.com/file/restricted/...eur_pantone.pdf < / a>

for those who are already members of the site.

I read the doc and am sharing my comments.
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Unread Messageby Christophe » 22/11/04, 21:35

I read the part 1ere (until 2 figure) here are my observations:

1) of pure water we never will burn with the system, it is necessary to provide a fuel injection (any) upstream from the reactor before or after the injection of water.

2) For the exhaust system (heating) why go through the air (and thus the design of a complex interchange) so that heat by the combustion gases of brûeur?

3) Provide pressure taken at the same place that catches of T ° along the reactor

4) For the form: some small remarks break the serious (and hence credibility) of the document (style. "Ca not farted" smiley ..) It's a shame because the author is at pains to the rest....

That is all I know for now ...
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Camel
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Unread Messageby Camel » 23/11/04, 23:18

Hi all, especially Christophe!

In response to your message:

* 1) of pure water we never will burn with the system, it is necessary to provide a fuel injection * (any) upstream from the reactor before or after * the injection of water.

I have perhaps not been clear enough in my presentation ... I come back to the basic question, that characterize the phenomenon happens in the reactor. Starting from the analysis of doping arrangements, including tractor. It is indeed only an air / water vapor passes, bringing improvement is known. In my mind, the idea of ​​test bench is to replicate the physical environment of the engine, by controlling various parameters, seen from the reactor. This is ultimately whether the cracking of water occurs or not, and if so, under what conditions ... knowing that PlomLaBricole recently had significant results (to be confirmed though) in "burning water in its boiler!

* 2) For the exhaust system (heating) why go through the air (and therefore * the design of a complex interchange) * then we heat by the combustion gases of brûeur?

The idea may seem a little convoluted, but again, the goal is to get as close as possible to the real operating conditions of the reactor, namely that its heating comes from the backwash, whose temperature drops to As they approach the exit -> the temperature does not seem to be the same all along the tube.
Do not forget setting the gas flow, which inevitably will influence the heat input to the reactor. We must not forget that we want to simulate a car engine, called to run for a diet slows to full capacity, and we wish to see enter the reactor in the same action slows. In this light, the mastery of the flow of exhaust gas is in my opinion not an unnecessary luxury!

* 3) Provide pressure taken at the same place that catches of T ° along the reactor *

It does not eat bread, I planned a "minimum program" but we can actually add a measure of pressure, as you suggest.

* 4) For the form: some small remarks break the seriousness (and thus the * credibility) of the document (style: "it has not farted" .. the smiley ones.) It's a shame * because the author gave himself bad for the rest ....

So here Christophe, arms fall to me! I actually did a dash of humor, amid a arride presentation, history pinpoint a sensitive issue for the glass tube. When I say "if it has not farted ..." I mean "if the glass tube reactor was not broken under the effect of expansion, requiring predict functional clearances between necessary and sufficient tube glass core (and its centering pins), and probably also between the glass tube and the outer tube, at the level crossings.

I thought it was obvious.

I would like to have your opinion rather on the principle, it being agreed that nothing is perfect, and I can not have thought of everything!

So, for now, that's all I have to say ...

Regards

Michel
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Unread Messageby Christophe » 24/11/04, 20:34

Well I finally found the tps to read the entire doc, following my remarks:

- To characterize the gas "geet" it would be more judicious to go through a weighing (thus mass analysis recess) ... mmm .. filling a buffer tank for example that would be weighed later or live? The bp may be the temperature ... but nobody forces the ball to be rubber, it's just an image ...

- No need to waste time making thermocouple (not including analysis tools to go to the pc and calibration ..) must BUY thermocouples, preferably lined (to avoid the electrical disturbance that is pouraient produirent in the reactor), or use a single-mounted "strip" sliding (mounted in the shaft or in the annular space). The purchase of T ° regulation or a universal thermocouple reader is both wiser

- Yes ... And for Infrared analysis at Ultraviolet? The best would be to be a spectral analysis? Via a light, well-known features, which illuminates one side of the reactor while at the other end comes a prism breaking that light ... we would have, after analysis of the spectrum, precise information on the atomic nuclei (idea refine with physicists!)

- Piezo Resonator: watch the flow, often low that the system allows ... an injector / mist upstream of this system pourait offset "a little" this limiting factor ...

- For the burner: can not convert a gas-liquid heat exchanger in gas-gas .... or so with very very low efficiency! I still think that injecting combustion gas boiler that would directly mount more temperature without the problem of sizing the échangeur..Le problem is that the boiler had a temp and airflow bound ... an alternative would be to turn right in the pot boiler and mount an air pump additionnal AFTER and BEFORE the burner reactor that could cool + or - the hot gas to sweep the desired T ° range.

- Choice of materials: pkoi not provide for studies of different couples reactor / kernel? The author seems to know the thermocouple, we speak of electricity generation in the reactor, it is possible that it acts as a thermocouple ... study materials and pair of materials would be wise! [/ Font ]
Voila ... I think it would not hurt to include / correct the .pdf I put on the site or make a 2de release.

ps: my remark on credibility was not personal but I put in place a skeptical scientific paper falling on your ... All good until that remark ... I think a "good scientific "read later after being dropped over the ...
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Camel
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Unread Messageby Camel » 25/11/04, 12:44

Hello !

Test comments and suggestions parraissent me sound. In terms of mods PDF, I could download (where?) The Word .doc version, more easily modifiable. Let's say it's just a preliminary PDF document that can lead to releases of increasingly comprehensive, whose scientific value will grow, depending on the quality of interventions to those who will participate in its development .. .

We need to find a system to be defined this is easy to do ... webmasters, ideas please!

See you !

Michel
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Unread Messageby Christophe » 25/11/04, 22:27

Euh..je not quite understand your question about the doc / pdf ... it's not you the document author? So logically you can modify it as you want right ???

In the system I think the game is worth the candle I am quite responsive to update documents right?
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krissg29
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Unread Messageby krissg29 » 25/11/04, 22:35

I have an idea for the realization of the test reactor (an idea is, I know what it's worth)

Is that the tubes must always be threaded into each other. Mount half shells 2 could simplify the development of measuring instruments.

What do you think?

Christophe
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