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Water injection: understanding and scientific explanationsJP Petit

process of understanding: the assembly of ideas, research, analysis ... physicochemical aspects.
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~ Jean-Marc ~
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Unread Messageby ~ Jean-Marc ~ » 23/11/04, 22:10

Good evening everyone,

Here is one more page (in French) on the subject with a summary of mounting on a tractor and some assumptions about the operation.

<a href='http://www.jp-petit.com/ENERGIES_DOUCES/moteur_a_eau1.htm' target='_blank'> http://www.jp-petit.com/ </a>

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Unread Messageby Christophe » 23/11/04, 23:03

I am honored to have my name mentioned on the website of JP Petit, it prevents a link to econology would have done better ...;)
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Unread Messageby Christophe » 24/11/04, 22:17

I found the article quite confu ... we digress quickly between different concepts that have not necessarily related to the injection of water ... Here are the passages I have "chosen":

"The PC, post-combustion, is to continue burning outside the combustion chambers by injecting new kerosene in the flue gas. But then that one uses a catalyst that is just ... water. the post combustion be done with water injection. (&&& question, what is the mass of water shipped a Mirage III to power its PC?).

When I was twelve, during a visit to the aviation salon who was at the time in Paris at the Grand Palais I asked an American presenter what was the water in post systems combustion, a fairly recent introduction. He replied that it meant to break hydrocarbon molecules and improving combustion. (&&& Again, welcome details on what is known of the post combution mechanism. Percentages unburned, with and without water injection, etc). "


"As far as I know, the energy released only comes from burning kerosene and not of this ... water, having also the opportunity to become electrically charged, acts as a catalyst. (&& Other questions passage at engine manufacturers: how effectively is water in these afterburner There he electrification middle water does play a role simply because of the dipole nature of his.? molecule ? )"

"These opposite circulations cause a separation of electric charges, generates strong electric fields. In a cloud the breakdown occurs when the field is between 100.000 volts per meter and a megavolt per meter. The storm cloud is thus transformed into dynamic capacitor. the load separation is maintained by the upward movement. the only way to "discharge the capacitor" is the grounding, ie "grounded." to do this requires a conductive line and it will constitute the form of electric arc. This is lightning. He will breakdown, disruption, creating a thin very highly ionized channel, joule heated. This heating is so intense that the sudden expansion said channel gives rise to a shock wave called thunder. There is the visible lightning, outside the cloud, but the whole cloud-capacitor is covered by mini-arcs that are trying to restore its neutrality electrical, partially, since the same cloud can function repeatedly. The upward movement of humid air charging the capacitor, etc. It is a multi-shots capacitor, which stops working when the air upward movement fades.

I wonder if this "Pantone reactor" does not work on the scheme, with electrification of the air and mist of water droplets sent downstream from the carburetor. If that were the case, would the electric field created a powerful effect on combustion, playing a catalytic role. This would explain the very significant drop in pollution. Normal: they burn more fuel.

I think (but I could be wrong) the remarkable effectiveness of the "Pantone engine" comes from the fact that it would implement an extremely clever electro catalysis. more adequately It could be called:

electrodynamic catalyzed system "


"I think this idea of ​​using a water vapor mist as the catalyst, possibly with electrification, is interesting and could have industrial applications well above the lawn mower, tractor, resuscitation of a vehicle out of age. despite the obvious reduction of consumption and pollution, which attracted a certain defiance against the "Pantone reactor" (the name is well chosen) is the myth that "motor water. ""

"If there's electrifying one wonders if this will not create nitrogen oxides, thus generating a new pollution. We note in passing that the nitric oxide NO is the molecule that, in the air , has the lowest ionization potential, gives the most easily free electrons where, conversely, NO + ions, but the pollutant is NO2 which, mixed with water gives NO3H nitric acid ( "acid rain").

All this is to consider, measure, quantify, which should not be complicated. some tinkerers have made measurements of voltages and obetenues values ​​and amperage. But this error were "cross" tensions, according to the direction perpendicular to the axis of the "reactor". This is the axial field we would like to know. But beware: measurement of DDP in a two-phase fluid or plasma, plasma if there is not without pitfalls. Beware the "shadowing" (spherical shielding). Can be simple electric conductivity measurement, change of materials for the coaxial tubes.

It is stated that the circulation of flue gases must be the reverse of that of the water mist. This would militate in the direction of electrification of the environment was not a simple heat transfer, which would be independent of the direction of gas flow. "
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Unread Messageby m136044 » 28/11/04, 14:37

"The PC, the post-combustion, is to continue the combustion outside the combustion chambers by injecting again kerosene in the burned gases, but it is then that one resorts to a catalyst which is simply ... The post-combustion is done with water injection (&&& question, what is the mass of water shipped by a Mirage III to power its PC?).

Water injection has already been discussed at length in the turbomachinery Aeronautics PMC forum YAHOO FRANCE, I'll be brief:
Increased yields latest generation of turbomachinery and alloys have contributed to the abandonment of the water injection.

There were two types of water injection:

Injection into a supperior floor of HP compressuer which had the effect of increasing the gas mass input of the combustion chambers and "wrong" and the FCU (Fuel Control Unit) thereby increasing the mass of fuel injected QC. The effect of cooling NGV and HP turbine was incidental. A B747 100-equipped Pratt & Wittney JT9 consumed about 500 kg of demineralized water by engine on takeoff, the unused amount was shipped immediately drained not déterriorer circuits by frost and do not carry unnecessary load.

The water-methanol injection directly into the combustion chambers brought an energy increase (from methanol) + a water cooling. - RR DART turboprop Fokker 27 / Breguet Alizé - The shipped water could be retained for another takeoff.

In 2 cases water injection was not used routinely but uniqument when short track or high load.


Post combustion has absolutely nothing to do with the injection of water or with cathalyseurs. It is not only used as the turbo-reactors. On "burns" at the rear of the turbine of the fuel with conbustion is managed by a controller which controls the fuel flow and the pressure in the nozzle by controlling flaps (eyelids or shells) at the rear thereof. It is this expansion that provides additional thrust from the price of an exponential consumption.
The only civilian engine to be equipped with Post-Combustion was the Olympus RR - SECMA (Concorde). It was an all-or-nothing PC / takeoff unlike most military engines that have a modular boost usable in all phases of flight.
The operating time of the PC are tracked seconds.

Question, what is the mass of water shipped a Mirage III (Motor ATAR 9B or 9C SECMA) to power its PC? ..... 0 Kg !!!

Best regards.
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Unread Messageby Misterloxo » 16/12/04, 20:34

This is an important lesson that you give us here : Lol:

Hope to read you new to the forum
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