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Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...Moisture problems, absence of vmc

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
irga
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Moisture problems, absence of vmc

Unread Messageby irga » 04/09/17, 17:37

Hello everyone, I just arrived on this forum. I am interested in a subject in this forum about CMV. I live with my father who will have 76 years. He has health problems (kidney failure). I live at home for financial reasons. But her home does not have a CMV. There is no aspiring guest either in the kitchen. He changed the doors and windows that were made of wood to have PVC. Sometimes the hinges do not rotate any more and tear when a door is opened. My father repaired, but my father did not react. For him a VMC is useless. There is water in winter at the bottom of the doors and windows, in some places it's black. with fog in winter. To cook food in the kitchen I am obliged to open the kitchen door even in winter, to prevent the walls from getting wet. For him the solution is to put the heating. At this moment the remote control of the TV works badly, there is water in it. Every time I tell him that it comes from the humidity of the house it makes him angry. He is stubborn. For me the only time when one could install a vmc is unfortunately when he died. I do not wish his death, but this situation makes me angry with more a depression. For him, I am wrong and he is right. Even by proposing to him to pay the expenses of works he does not yield. How long can it last, after how long can the house hold under these conditions before work is urgent? Thank you for your reply. : Cry:
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Re: Moisture problems, lack of vmc

Unread Messageby Christophe » 04/09/17, 17:57

Hi and welcome here,

When was the installation of the PVC frames?

Condensation at the bottom of the doors is not normal (especially if the PVC is modern), is there any air leakage (faulty laying?).

Condensation is less related to too much moisture than a cold surface problem, below the dew point, and it condenses ... (the air will never contain more water than it can contain ... at 100% RH one is at 18g of water / m3 at 20 ° C) ... and a VMC will not change much.

On the other hand it is absolutely necessary to ventilate the rooms of water (bathroom and kitchen) ... because they create moisture in suspension (fog, steam ...) which will be added to the 18 g / m3 see molle curve: fixtures-injection water / moisture-curve-de-saturation-of-the-air-and-rh-mollier-t5928.html )

How much and how is heated the house because if it is badly heated, it will condense and this even if the house is well ventilated ...

Otherwise you measured the humidity in% RH? What is the result?
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irga
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Re: Moisture problems, lack of vmc

Unread Messageby irga » 04/09/17, 18:21

pvc doors have 10 years. I do not think there are any defects; Except that my father has surely asked that some ventilation at the top of the windows be not as in the kitchen. I do not know how to measure the humidity in the house, nobody came for that besides. Yes the water rooms and kitchen are airing the best I can. The house is heated with electricity, for a temperature (in winter) about 25 degrees.
the house had a ventilation (it had 40 years) but the evacuation was done in the attic. So it created problems. My father deleted him because of that. Since for him it is finished.
the house also has rolling shutters laid at the same time as the windows. They also have problems, one day in the winter shutters froze and broke when opening. The repairers asked if there was a VMC. I replied with no great regret.
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irga
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Re: Moisture problems, lack of vmc

Unread Messageby irga » 05/09/17, 17:23

I look at the link with the curve and the graph but these documents do not allow me to find what corresponds to my home; to tell the truth I do not understand. I just described the problems in a concrete way.
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Re: Moisture problems, lack of vmc

Unread Messageby Oc raph » 11/12/17, 22:35

irga wrote:I look at the link with the curve and the graph but these documents do not allow me to find what corresponds to my home; to tell the truth I do not understand. I just described the problems in a concrete way.

Hello,
This problem of humidity is well linked to a lack of air renewal. Indoor air is at 25 ° c. This air may contain more water (in grams) than colder air. In short, cold air taken on the outside and warming up, will be much drier than the indoor air and thus reduce the risk of condensation. In addition, the development of mold is a significant health risk and a risk for the structure (development of whiting or fungi).
To limit these risks, it is necessary to ventilate and, when possible, to isolate it from the outside (one thus avoids the bad workmanship during the installation of the vapor barrier).
Good luck
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LOGIC12
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Re: Moisture problems, lack of vmc

Unread Messageby LOGIC12 » 20/02/18, 00:11

Hello, When replacing single glazed windows that were not very tight (which ensured a minimum of air change) by PVC windows which, they are very waterproof, it is a "pressure cooker" with its House. It's a real disaster. Just have one or two hygrometers to realize it.

A change of windows should not be done without the installation of a VMC, or it is necessary to be a maniac of the very frequent opening of windows to compensate. Some windows that have probably been in trouble, refuse to place new windows if you do not install a VMC

And it needs aeration on the windows dry rooms only: room and living room, and in the kitchen, the bathroom and toilet is made to arrive an aspiration of the VMC.

To measure the humidity, it takes one or two hygrometers (it is about 10 12 euros in the electricity department, (we find easily that are not bad to Leclerc not to mention it and there is the choice) L hygrometry is also linked to that of the outside: in rainy weather it is strong, but also to what is done in the house: kitchen, showers release a lot of steam that must be removed, otherwise it is a real sauna and rots everything.

A VMC is installed in the eaves in principle and the evacuation is done outside or hole in the pinion, or most often in the roof (pass the roofer to put an exit).

Otherwise it is difficult to keep a healthy house in these conditions. It would be necessary to make air flow several times a day.

It must also have a passage of about 12 mm in the bottom of the interior doors (you must pass a finger) for the VMC to operate normally. The air enters the vents on the windows of the rooms and the living room, passes under the doors and is sucked by the VMC;

These air intakes should be made, and if necessary, you could install an extractor hood that pulls out at least 300 m3 / h and vent it outside. By running it while cooking and also 5 at 10 mn 4 or 5 times a day, it would simply renew the air of the house, and it would clean it up. And for the bathroom, open the window big at least two hours after the shower.

This system may be more acceptable to your father in the meantime, and that would not prevent a VMC from being placed later. It still needs air inlets on windows, because if we suck air, it must be renewed, otherwise it does not work well.

In the meantime, to clean the rooms, you can, in good weather inspire you with this video:



Otherwise the sheets and even the mattress must be moist, and it is not healthy at all.
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Re: Moisture problems, lack of vmc

Unread Messageby izentrop » 20/02/18, 09:16

Hello,
He chose the most energy-consuming heating, in addition to 25 ° without ventilation it is breathing a polluted air, plus all the degradations that the humidity causes.
Ventilation is essential in an isolated house. And then we close the breakdowns because we think that it weighs on the heating bill is wrong:
For a simple flow, an average flow rate of 50 m3 / h, 0 ° outside and 25 ° inside: 0.34 x 50 x 25 = 425 W, on 20 kW heating (to the pif), it is negligible.

As there are no air vents, it can install a double flow to recover some of the heat of the exhaust air, much more expensive to purchase and maintenance, not on whether it is profitable.
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Re: Moisture problems, lack of vmc

Unread Messageby LOGIC12 » 20/02/18, 21:30

Hello,

There would be a solution: The doctor must come to him at home, he should be told by explaining the problem succintement, and when it comes that he makes the remark that the house is very wet and unhealthy, and he can not stay like that, that it is harmful to his health.

If the doctor says it, he may be listening more than you. This is very common with older people.

You could go to the town hall to see the accommodation, to advise (it exists) and these people might be able to change his mind.

But there are even young people and very young people who do not understand either and do not want to understand.

As it will be difficult all the same, at first, make it easy to install a suction HOOD with external exit as indicated previously. You put it all the way in and you open one window at a time for 5 mn, and the interior doors for the air to circulate.

It would be necessary to make the entries of air on windows, but that could be very difficult.

If it is too difficult to make the air intakes (ONLY on windows ROOMS and STAY, there is a solution that told me my window: it is necessary to cut with the cutter about 18 cm of joint in the top You have to look carefully before you cut to make sure that the air will run smoothly, and you have to do it discreetly as if you are cleaning the windows.
It is also necessary that the interior doors have a passage in the bottom of about 10 to 12 mm (it is necessary to be able to pass a finger) By default leave the half-open.

it will not be enough if you do not suck up the hood by running it a few minutes from time to time and also when cooking.

What kind of heating does it have? electric radiators?

What would probably go well is a PAC AIR / AIR (basically reversible air conditioning inverter) it consumes 3 or 4 times less than radiators;

And it would take two splits or 3, and it would heat you almost everything, in addition it would clean up. But it will be for later, because you will never be able to do anything.

You can tell him that because of the poor health of the house his health deteriorates even more, and that he may be hospitalized for a long time, while if the house was healthy, he could live longer at home. Well, that would be for the doctor to tell him, it would be more weighty.

Good luck anyway, and in the meantime try to renew the air often but very quickly not to cool too much.

Ah I forgot, given the situation, there would be the solution to have an electric dehumidifier that removes moisture from the air by passing it on a cold plate, and the water is recovered in a tray down which you have to empty. The unit stops when the tank is full.

This is not the ideal solution, but when the situation is blocked, it helps to clean up.

I'm thinking of one thing: I hope it does not have a petrol or gas heater, because if it did, it makes things even worse: it produces as much water as steam consumed fuel, it is a real cat, and more is dangerous in a house as tight. If this is the case, get help as indicated above.
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Re: Moisture problems, lack of vmc

Unread Messageby Meszigues3 » 22/02/18, 23:53

LOGIC12 wrote: [...] given the situation, there would be the solution of having a dehumidifier electric that removes moisture from the air by passing it on a cold plate, and the water is collected in a tray down which must be emptied. The unit stops when the tank is full.
Hi,

If the father does not want to hear about VMC, this is a good solution.
I have a long time (10 years?) In a humid cellar, which rotates all year, with the water that goes into an evacuation. I check it when I think about it, that is, never. The cellar is dry.
If it is difficult to connect to an evacuation, emptying the tub once or twice a day is not too much of a pain.
Very low consumption and which participates in the heating of housing.
Price from 100 to 300 euros.
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