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Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...small collective heating modification notice

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
SG70
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small collective heating modification notice

Unread Messageby SG70 » 10/12/16, 23:06

Hello,

I'm on a major renovation of a mill in Franche Comte has the distinction of having a portion of the building dedicated to the rental, condos 8 60 m² each of all classified C (133kWh ep / m².year) on DPE (for what that's worth ...) volume to be heated ladle 1000 m3 (part roof)

For now we are on an aging oil boiler (one consumes approximately 6000l with ECS / year) but the existing system does not suit us to 4 reasons:
1 - The presence of a tank 3000 the fuel in the mill when we are in Riverside (Ognon for those who know) in the flood zone in a porous soil (silt) freaks me the any leakage of fuel hello environmental damage ...
2 - The fuel stinks ... (certainly as purely subjective opinion)
3 - The heating circuit although in parallel is lousy because the pipes are inaccessible (impossible to change easily) or heating loads are roughly divided by dividing by 8 which penalizes responsible tenants compared others (not big on some who have the windows open in winter heating funds for clopper without smoking their apts and they cloppent much and long to see those opened to ventilate then go on extended weekend forgetting to close while -7 made the night ... well ...)
4 - The fuel stinks ... (I know I repeat myself ...)

So we will change any installation this summer, wholesale:
- We keep the radiators in each apartment but we redo all the plumbing through the new pipes by the DRC (the apartments are 1er 2eme and 3eme floor, the DRC is available on the entire surface of the building)
- Changing heating mode by switching to wood (buche or pellet) with accumulation.
- Is made for each apartment an independent circuit (there between 2 3 to radiator apart by them but the cumulative power is substantially constant 2000W per apartment) with an energy meter for each apartment (volumetric ultrasound probe with plug temperature and entered in return.
- We are already ECS produced by the boiler room (a ball 300l) with a counter by ECS apart so ca we keep just changing the hot and cold water meter room to regroup for each apartment three meter cold water, ECS and heating at the same location)
- We keep the charge pump of the heating circuit (a WILO 25 / 6 1 in ") that seems to be enough (it is 2 position in general)
So much for the "design" ...

But at this stage I am metaphysical questions about the design of the new facility because I'm not on the subject for a long time and it is not in either profession mo either (I mean heating)

So we share the moment on the following setup (see "beautiful" design, sorry it is in English, a habit for me):

HWHS.png
HWHS.png (26.03 KB) Viewed times 1222


- A wood pellet boiler log or a power of about 35 kW (the boiler fuel is 40 kW in the existing) with a charge pump Wilo Star RS 26 / 5 on the return circuit ( "Boiler Pump") and 3 way valve ( "boiler 3 way valve") whose role is to maintain the return temperature above 50 ° C (the aim being to prevent condensation in as quickly as possible the amount of temperature boiler)
- Two storage tanks of 3000 l with a valve system ( "V1" and "V2") to be working on a single ball in mid season when needs are low ( "V1" open "V2" closed) or with 2 in series ( "V1" closed "V2" open).
- A distribution circuit (horizontal) which serves 8 apts (diagram of the simplification worries small yellow square marked "C" represent the probe valve and meter for each apartment, FYI we are on the 28 diameter on that part with a tap in 18 for each apartment) with a three way valve ( "Circuit 3 way valve") and a charge pump Wilo Star RS 26 / 5 ( "Circuit pump") on the go circuit, the purpose of the valve is regulate the flow temperature (constant temperature heating 70 ° C whatever the rate, each radiator is already fitted with a thermostatic valve) and an overflow valve for the unlikely event that all the valves on all radiators would be closed to ... freak 2.5 kg / cm² max (delta between pressure and pressure go back)
- A circuit for powering the interchange of ECS with a charge pump Wilo Star RS 25 / 2 ( "Hot Water Tank Pump") and a check valve ( "One Way Valve") so that when the pump " Circuit pump "or" Boiler pump "is underway while the pump" Hot water Tank pump "is off it is a movement against the direction that bypass the storage tank via the heat exchanger DHW

In terms of regulations:

Choice of valves "V1" and "V2" manual.

To pump "Boiler Pump" and its associated valve three way "Boiler 3 Way Valve"
- If boiler (probable) wood log loading is manual servo pump in the flue gas temperature?
- If pellet boiler (automatic start so) automatic control of the boiler and pump to a temperature sensor on the storage tank with startup when the last ¼ of the balloon falls under 50 ° C?
In all cases servo valve "Boiler 3 Way valve" by a temperature just after taking the pump "Boiler Pump"

To pump "Pump circuit" and 3-way valve associated "Circuit 3 Way Valve" was over the existing installation system which snaps the pump as soon as one is in winter mode and a pilot 4 way valve (the instead of the planned three-way) depending on the outside temperature (cold ca wholesale'm doing is running hot it will stop ... that not break three legs to a duck either) and the flow temperature of the heating circuit, we were thought just keep managing the pump in the summer / winter mode (large on / off manual) and manage the valve three way through a temperature sensor on the circuit just go after the charge pump to maintain a constant temperature of 70 ° C (high temperature heating ... no choice but to change all additional radiators and there is no place ...)

To pump ECS easy commissioning of the temperature probe of the DHW storage tank (last 1 / 3 ball) falls below a certain value (ladle 60 ° C)

In summer and mid-season operation on a single tank of storage, cold lapériode doubling the storage volume by triggering the second series in a balloon.

The installation you she looks good?
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LOGIC12
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Re: small collective heating modification Review

Unread Messageby LOGIC12 » 13/02/17, 09:55

Hello, You do not really responsabiliserez renters with central heating. In addition, if you have a bad payer, it will be heated for free.

We must turn all this great ioler the building, plus ventilation for not people complain of "condensation and moisisuuuuuures"
and if the accommodations are not too large or electric heaters or small PAC AIR / AIR super economical for each unit (basically a reversible air conditioning inverter.).

And each must have its individual electric meter to have no concern.
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chatelot16
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Re: small collective heating modification Review

Unread Messageby chatelot16 » 13/02/17, 20:50

What is it that the yellow square with a C?

if the heat meter is perfect, it allows each user to pay according to what they consume and motivate to save money

why large storage tank? a balloon appears to me useful when the boiler is unable to adapt as necessary as a boiler buche ... I think boilers Pellet well modulate their power

the problem of heat meter is serious: it is the right solution but in France for heating equipment dealer does not want to sell a reasonable price: always sold horribly overpriced ... as if the right solution was undesirable
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dede2002
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Re: small collective heating modification Review

Unread Messageby dede2002 » 14/02/17, 12:34

Hi Chatelot,

I had the same reflection that you, the individual meters are indicated in the description.

Here an energy meter "reliable" it costs 400 en-euro, to measure the flow and delta T °, ​​and calculate ...

The 6000 liters of buffer can be heated by solar panels in extra, otherwise it's a lot for a log wood boiler, it may help to have a few days in advance.
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lilian07
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Re: small collective heating modification Review

Unread Messageby lilian07 » 14/02/17, 21:10

Hi,
We certainly see at first if isolation is not possible but given the tenants that seems difficult inside and given the rank of not building from the outside.
All seems well sized me given the power committed by the boiler fuel and consumption in m2 / year.
I will say that the countdown by tenant is a good idea but that the choice of a wood log boiler stress in this context because that will take care of "supply the boiler? Hardly possible in my opinion and if it's present owner quite a load to handle (about 100 kg of wood in winter is a charge per day ...)
If local storage is better to use a boiler board (wood chips) cheaper than the pellet boiler purchase and the cost of wood. However, it takes place 2200 Kwh / m3 of wood chips (or in your case a local accessible by truck collocated to re-boilers of 27 m3 storage.
The pellet boiler is more expensive, requires a little less storage space and a little less interviews.
In your case I will make order of priority:
1) isolation if possible
2) I will keep the boiler fuel with possibly a buffer tank design coupled with solar thermal and heat individual storytellers per apartment.
3) When the boiler fuel boiler loose change for a timber.
4) possibly CAP water - water (river) instead of the PAC air-source with low temperature transmitter to reduce heat emission to 40 ° retaining the possibility of coupling the thermal sensors (always with counter individual)

The Fuel is not very expensive today and when isolating a bit this system remains in the competition.
Good luck for the installation is never easy especially in your case with the tenant.
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dede2002
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Re: small collective heating modification Review

Unread Messageby dede2002 » 15/02/17, 14:46

SG70 wrote:...
3 - The heating circuit although in parallel is lousy because the pipes are inaccessible (impossible to change easily) or heating loads are roughly divided by dividing by 8 which penalizes responsible tenants compared others (not big on some who have the windows open in winter heating funds for clopper without smoking their apts and they cloppent much and long to see those opened to ventilate then go on extended weekend forgetting to close while -7 made the night ... well ...)
.


Hello,

If the existing piping is still strong, I do not change, that's a lot of work and expense, plus 8 counters just to apportion the costs ...

Possibly it would be easier to switch windows to close the radiators. : Wink:

I also have tenants, and the biggest problem I encountered is with tenants who never opened the windows ...
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LOGIC12
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Re: small collective heating modification Review

Unread Messageby LOGIC12 » 18/11/17, 06:36

hello, the problem is that another type of heating (wood or pellets) will be binding for the owner. Even if he is young and healthy, he will soon be fed up. And if he gets older and can no longer insure, it will become problematic ... If you want to sell, the work imposed by this kind of heating will dissuade potential buyers.

It is certain that with oil, it is less restrictive, and one can always install another tank where it is not likely to bathe in the water, and either remove the other tank, or have it empty completely. and clean it so it does not risk anything, and it can be filled with pebbles for example.
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Re: small collective heating modification Review

Unread Messageby PVresistif » 25/05/18, 11:25

2 remarks based on experience in residence with collective heating and hot water:
1) it is stupid and especially contemptuous to install meters on a collective heating because what will happen: those who work during the day or are absent at the weekend will lower their heating and so it will be those who are obliged to stay and therefore heat permanently who will pay for the others because an unheated apartment "pump" the heat of the apartment next door; thus you will punish the retired, often those who are the poorest; really a big "collective" idea, you take to the poor to give to the rich somehow
I was able to observe this in a collective residence without counting (ouf) or when starting it was always the first retirees to ask to start the heating.
2) the collective hot water must have a count on it but it is necessary to know that in collective installations the fact even to centralize the production is a disaster in term of yield seen the length of the pipes which generate losses very important in water and energy
the ideal is of course the centralized production in each apartment by an electric water heater, it is by far the least expensive solution at all points of view but it is the best solution for the trustee and for the companies; it is the same for the state which pumps 20% of VAT on the investment as well as on the overconsumption due to the losses (about the double of energy, because 50% easy losses ...)
You are the "perfect students" of liberalism which is to pay a max and pollute a max the planet, it goes hand in hand ... and in addition you totally ignore (voluntarily I think?) The problems of heat theft. an apartment to another!
You are in the air of the time ....... Hah really what social conscience, what taking into account of the human aspect ....
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chatelot16
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Re: small collective heating modification Review

Unread Messageby chatelot16 » 25/05/18, 13:10

we must find a reasonable solution between the complete absence of a heat meter that allows anyone to open their windows and waste heat ... and the payment entirely to the heat meter that allows some to be heated for free by neighbors in just a little lower temperature

the sensible solution is to share the price of the heating in 2 part ... a part distributed with the meter, and a part distributed according to the surfaces, so that the one who lets himself be heated by the neighbors still pays in a reasonable way

he who is content with a low temperature is not open to criticism! that's the purpose of the heat meter! to motivate the economy ... I think that 19 ° C is much too much ... at home I live very well with 10 ° C in winters
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Re: small collective heating modification Review

Unread Messageby dirk pitt » 27/05/18, 14:26

thank you chatelot,
a little common sense and compromise, it's still better than extremism has everything punctuated by ya ka and "he is stupid ..."
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