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Climate change: CO2, warming, greenhouse ...Prepare the exit ...

Warming and Climate Change: causes, consequences, analysis ... Debate on CO2 and other greenhouse gas.
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izentrop
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Prepare the exit ...

Unread Messageby izentrop » 11/09/18, 10:08

Climate: we will have wars and dishonor https://www.lesechos.fr/idees-debats/ce ... 203229.php
How to act?

Aurelien Barrau - Climax Festival 2018 depicts the painting and proposes solutions. direct link : https://peertube.mastodon.host/videos/w ... bd2923895c

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Re: Prepare the way out ...

Unread Messageby Christophe » 11/09/18, 12:05

Climax means (also) orgasm in English, Trump will surely be interested! : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

I would have chosen another name ...
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Re: Prepare the way out ...

Unread Messageby izentrop » 11/09/18, 14:04

I would have preferred to discuss the substance, because there is urgency.

For example, banks continue to invest in dirty energies with money from French bank accounts.

These are initiatives that go in the right direction: They repeated it in Amiens yesterday.
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Re: Prepare the way out ...

Unread Messageby Ahmed » 11/09/18, 14:29

This Aurelien Barrau gives in the teddy bear attitude or what? How can he think for a moment that to kindly ask political "leaders" (sic!) To go against the interests of those they actually represent (as opposed to those they formally represent) would be followed by ?
More seriously, by entrusting them with the mission of establishing a coercive austerity, it risks on this register to be perfectly understood and this would be well in the sense of the increase of the current inequalities. However, it is not urgent to justify them and to increase them. We recall Christine Lagarde which invited the people to "tighten their belts" from their position at the head of the IMF! : Lol:

The initiative concerning Société Générale is of the same naivety, substituting a moralizing vision for a real analysis and thus postulating two types of savings: one that would serve men and satisfy their needs, and another that would be theirs. caricature and evidence of a stale development, contrary to the interests of the peoples and destructive of natural wealth. In reality, this opposition is a deception and this type of virtuous economy that one willingly projects towards a mythical past has never existed and the one we know today is only the evolutionary extension of the previous one. This only testifies to the indigence of the left-wing thinking, whose only horizon is that of the past, when the economy needed all and the advent of the consumer society gave the illusion of a universal prosperity soon and that it was capitalism (by means of some regulatory efforts) that would achieve it ...: roll:
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Re: Prepare the way out ...

Unread Messageby Christophe » 11/09/18, 15:03

izentrop wrote:I would have preferred to discuss the substance, because there is urgency.


You obviously know my opinion above: we talk about the background from 2005 on this forum!

We can not rely on the classical system to hope to make "evolve" massively things: it is well anchored in profit. Maybe the victory of (true) communism over capitalism could have saved the climate (or prevented the worst) ... but it is not "compatible" with the "nature" of Man (search for power profit): Chinese "false communism" is a good example!

In short expect nothing from the "system" and develop local initiatives to live better with his "climate consciousness" seems to me the only thing to do now ...

And finally, a little reminder, "They are only great because we are on our knees"
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Re: Prepare the way out ...

Unread Messageby Grelinette » 11/09/18, 16:24

izentrop wrote:These are initiatives that go in the right direction: They repeated it in Amiens yesterday.



I am afraid that this type of initiative has little effect.

I still imagine that the people concerned by these actions, namely the financiers, shareholders, bankers, CEOs, and other officials, well settled in their comfortable offices at the top of their ivory tower, are only slightly affected by these ecological artifacts. and do not forget the financial stakes and the expected profits that will result from their polluting decisions. At the very most, I see them looking at the window of their office with a distracted and contemptuous glance, saying that they are cynical about these street agitators!

There is of course the argument to say that with this media hype the basic consumer will react and change his behavior and his choices, in this case change banks or choose another for a banking service, but I I'm not even sure.

You just have to see the case of cheating on the pollution of VW cars: the brand is still a great commercial success, the customers are still numerous and the sales of cars would have climbed ... one would almost believe that this case made them a pub shot!
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Re: Prepare the way out ...

Unread Messageby Ahmed » 11/09/18, 18:33

The distinction between clean energy and dirty energy is valid if one considers the means, but remains a delusion with regard to ends. Energy is used to transform the world and thus destroy it; by confining oneself to superficial considerations, one escapes the whole problem and reduces it to moral considerations (in the most restrictive sense of the term). More seriously, the actions that this truncated analysis provokes are doomed to failure, since the various economic agents are only complying with economic determinisms that exceed them.
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Re: Prepare the way out ...

Unread Messageby izentrop » 11/09/18, 22:34

We did not understand the same message.
Ahmed wrote:How can he think for a moment that to kindly ask political "leaders" (sic!) To go against the interests of those they actually represent (as opposed to those they formally represent) would be followed by ?
More seriously, by entrusting them with the mission of establishing a coercive austerity, it risks on this register to be perfectly understood and this would be well in the sense of the increase of the current inequalities
Where are you going to get all this? He says only that we need to demand that the climate protection policies make their priority and that the economy can no longer be based on growth in a world with limited resources. Nothing prevents us from fighting against inequalities at the same time.
Ahmed wrote:The initiative concerning Société Générale is similarly naive
Well no ! to let their customers know that their money is used to develop dirty energies (shale gas ext ...) proceeds from the same determination to limit the damage on the climate.
Christophe wrote:In short expect nothing from the "system" and develop local initiatives to live better with his "climate consciousness" seems to me the only thing to do now ...
Yes that's it, let the leaders do as they please. In these conditions, it will not be surprising to sink in dark days as in the days of the jacqueries or the far-west ... The law of the strongest, minorities have only to creuver. Beautiful humanity : roll:
Grelinette wrote:There is of course the argument to say that with this media hype the basic consumer will react and change his behavior and his choices, in this case change banks or choose another for a banking service, but I I'm not even sure.
That's the point :)
Grelinette wrote:You just have to see the case of cheating on the pollution of VW cars: the brand is still a great commercial success, the customers are still numerous and the sales of cars would have climbed ... one would almost believe that this case made them a pub shot!
Nothing to see and what we know today is that other brands cheat too, customers know it very well.
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Re: Prepare the way out ...

Unread Messageby Christophe » 11/09/18, 22:49

izentrop wrote:
Christophe wrote:In short expect nothing from the "system" and develop local initiatives to live better with his "climate consciousness" seems to me the only thing to do now ...
Yes that's it, let the leaders do as they please. In these conditions, it will not be surprising to sink in dark days as in the days of the jacqueries or the far-west ... The law of the strongest, minorities have only to creuver. Beautiful humanity : roll:


This is not at all what I wanted to say ... I mean that we must develop and impose local initiatives without counting on "the top", even if it is "outside the law (lobbyist laws obviously) during a time...

Some call this civil disobedience ...
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Re: Prepare the way out ...

Unread Messageby Ahmed » 11/09/18, 23:00

Izentrop, you write:
Where are you going to look for all this? He says only that we need to demand that the climate protection policies make their priority and that the economy can no longer be based on growth in a world with limited resources. Nothing prevents us from fighting against inequalities at the same time.

You're right, it's true in the country of bisounours! But in real life, dominated by the economy, the climate could only be "saved" if the operation brought more than the opposite, a condition that is not fulfilled. As for the inequalities, what could support this optimistic affirmation?

Further:
Well no ! To let their customers know that their money is used to develop dirty energies (shale gas exct ...) proceeds from the same determination to limit the damage on the climate.

Depositors' money is not used directly for these purposes and I do not doubt that if these financial institutions were to re-establish a relative virginity for branding purposes, other, more discreet sources of funding would abound these very profitable investment.

Finally, you declare to Christophe:
Yes that's it, let the leaders do as they please. In these conditions, it will not be surprising to sink into dark days, as in the days of the jacqueries or far-west ... The law of the strongest, minorities have only to die. Beautiful humanity : roll:

The law of the strongest has been applied for a long time, softened by circumstantial moderations that are always reviewable, and the leaders in fact act as they please, that is, they obey the determinisms that dominate them. Of course, they care about public opinion, which is why they deploy a deft and intense propaganda. When it is not enough, they arrange with circumvention strategies (remember the Maastricht treaty!) To ignore it.
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