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Independence of Catalonia this 27 October 2017

published: 27/10/17, 16:02
by Christophe
Waaw I didn't think that would happen ... Catalonia is therefore a new European "country"?

Basques, Corsicans, Alsatians, Bretons, Ardennais, Picards, Savoyards ... Wake up! : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

Please note it already had a lot of autonomy in fact (from 1932 according to Wiki): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogne

Live: Catalan parliament begins independence process

The resolution initiating a "constituent process" to separate from Spain was adopted Friday by 70 votes for, 10 against, 2 whites. 53 deputies had left the hemicycle before the vote.

(...)


Press and direct:

http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/live/2017/ ... _3214.html

http://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/espagn ... 39737.html

http://www.lci.fr/international/en-dire ... 67791.html

Re: Independence of Catalonia this October 27, 2017

published: 27/10/17, 16:44
by Did67
Christophe wrote:
Catalonia is therefore a new European "country"?



They can declare themselves.

The Spanish State will put them under guardianship (article 155). So legally take power.

After that, what? Civil war ???

I do not know.

European, in the sense of the continent, perhaps, they can become so - if it does not turn into civil war.

EU membership, on the other hand, will take years and years ... Undoubtedly a dozen, at the very least, like the fastest Baltic countries (Estonia). Probably more because, contrary to the unanimous will that there was to "hang up" the Eastern countries to the European bloc before Putin gets his hands on it, no country in the EU will want this to succeed in the case. of Catalonia, to prevent it from giving ideas to their "minorities". And they are everywhere! This will quibble dry! Maybe never even succeed!

In my opinion, it will quickly decline! In particular, French companies which were looking for a "foothold" in Spain often fell back on Catalonia, which is culturally and geographically close. They will go to other Spanish regions.

But hey, a "country" can choose to be autonomous and ... poor, or in decline, or landlocked! It is his strictest right.

No more Leonardo in Barcelona, ​​too.

Re: Independence of Catalonia this October 27, 2017

published: 27/10/17, 17:01
by Christophe
Did67 wrote:After that, civil war ???

I do not know.


Perhaps, we already had a taste of violence from the "central" government during the referendum ...

And this Spanish split is likely to give ideas to the Flemish ... well not ideas but reasons to get started because it's been years that some want it, we even talked about it here in 2006: media / belgium-to-burst-debate-on-the-power-of-the-media-t2758.html

Review the famous docu-fiction that scared many Belgians: https://www.econologie.com/telechargeme ... n-realite/

Yep, let's not forget that the Belgium is currently led mainly by NVa, i.e. the Flemish far right ... and yes we speak very little about it but Belgium is on the far right ...

Re: Independence of Catalonia this October 27, 2017

published: 27/10/17, 17:21
by Gaston
For comparison on the methods used elsewhere, I recommend reading this article.

Re: Independence of Catalonia this October 27, 2017

published: 27/10/17, 18:12
by Did67
One of the questions is indeed that of the scale at which a "democratic" decision is taken ...

Is Spain as a State in favor of the independence of Catalonia? I do not think so. I'm talking about the people, not the representatives. Representation posing yet another problem for democracies!

But assuming that Catalonia democratically votes for independence (because there is far from being unanimity; the sham election does not respond), is it conceivable that such a municipality will then oppose and stay in Spain ??? Because if the national vote is not imposed on Catalonia, why the Catalan vote, if it were to be for independence, should it be imposed on the municipalities?

Where we see that democracy is complicated.

Re: Independence of Catalonia this October 27, 2017

published: 27/10/17, 18:15
by Did67
Christophe wrote:
Perhaps, we already had a taste of violence from the "central" government during the referendum ...



I'm only half joking with the idea of ​​civil war!

It is clear that Madrid played biceps, hoping to dissuade the separatists ... At least the majority of the population. But they lacked finesse.

Re: Independence of Catalonia this October 27, 2017

published: 28/10/17, 01:02
by Christophe
What makes me laugh is that we are witnessing more and more regionalization of the Nations ... all over Europe ...

Nations which had to federate, often for centuries, these regions to exist and this quite frequently in blood and violence ...

Anyway, I have a little feeling of going back there ...

Can we predict the end of nations and the emergence of federated regions? Perhaps...

Re: Independence of Catalonia this October 27, 2017

published: 28/10/17, 09:54
by Did67
For my part, I see it as a form of nationalism on a smaller scale. Right, far right or far left, it remains "nationalism" (in the sense of rejection of the other).

It is the refusal to "cooperate" and to share, refusal to build things, refusal of socialization, therefore refusal of civilization ... It is the temptation to think that "problems" always come and go. first of all!

At the end of the line, everyone in their hole and we will be happy?

Because from the nation to the region - Catalonia über alles - we will pass to the cities - Strasbourg über alles - then to the districts - the Robertsau über alles - then to such a building - the 36 über alles ... And so at the end of the line, each in his hole. Like rats.

On another note, it is communitarianism. Philosophically, it's the same.

I think this is currently a "heavy trend". After "disappointments" linked to excess "socialization" or its abuses (social security, APL, ASSEDIC ...).

Take this for a rant. Not objective.

Re: Independence of Catalonia this October 27, 2017

published: 28/10/17, 10:15
by Ahmed
Why speak of excess of "socialization" (which was rather the sign of the contrary; but I noted your parenthesis), when it is obviously a question of the passage from the selection R to the selection k (as it would say, quite rightly, Sen-no-sen)?
This development can only reinforce imbalances between regions and create growing tensions.
In social matters, we are not left with the highlighting of this old absurd concept of "runoff", which consists in favoring the richest minority, a technique which guarantees a consequence which is not observed in the physical world. summoned by this metaphor: the flow upwards ...

Re: Independence of Catalonia this October 27, 2017

published: 28/10/17, 10:59
by izentrop
Communitarianism, nationalism ...

"The most radical of the Catalan separatists therefore won, throwing Spain into chaos", judges Alexandra Schwartzbrod. "Passion has taken over and we do not see how the worst can be avoided", analyzes the editorialist of Liberation.

It is important that all actors keep in mind examples from the past, even recent ones. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerre_de ... 3%A9govine