The renewable energy hydrogen car: the future?

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Fakir
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The renewable energy hydrogen car: the future?




by Fakir » 10/04/12, 19:28

The hydrogen car RE: The future?
Today, I have trouble understanding what the brakes in the hydrogen sector!
1) 1er misconception: Hydrogen is expensive
2) 2th idea received dangerous to store
3) 3th idea received technologies are not mature!

1) Storage and security
Until now, there were two techniques for storing H².
The cryogenic method remains very heavy to implement. It can store 70 kg / M3
The method with high compression at 700 bar makes it possible to store the H² at 43 kg / M3.
These two techniques of storage by Hydrogen are expensive (energetically and economically), dangerous with heavy maintenance.
However, this situation has changed. An efficient storage of H² by magnesium hydride has been developed: A very French solution: the McPhy solution: http://www.lejournaldesfluides.com/actu ... se-solide/
The McPhy storage allows to store 100 kg / M3 of H² at a pressure of 10 bars. In the production cycle of H² with hydrolysis at the same pressure, the company announces a storage yield of 97% (which is impressive!). McPhy is now in the series (proto 2008).

2) Economic?
Consumption of a car with hydrogen: 7.9 kg for 1000 km. Example of the Mercedes F125. ( http://www.moteurnature.com/actu/2011/m ... ybride.php)

The Nissan Leaf makes 160 km with its battery of 24 kWh, ie 15 KWh for 100 Km. *
By taking a CAP with a yield of 60%, 120 MJ per kg for H², we obtain 7.5 kg for 1000 km.
This result is close to the consumption announced by Mercedes.
http://www.afh2.org/uploads/memento/Fic ... 202006.pdf

(sorry for the table layout)
Cost price H2 Natural gas Coal Biomass Electricity
($ HT / GJ) 37 36,2 38,9 48,8
($ HT / kg) 4,44 4,344 4,668 5,856

A production of H² EnR comes back to roughly the same cost. It's even cheaper with today's PV prices. The big advantage is that the process consumes the electricity produced.
I take an equivalent 1.3 $ = €. At the pump we obtain one kg of Hydrogen from 5.4 € TTC.
With gasoline at 1 € / L and 6L / 100 km in average consumption  6 € / 100 km
With hydrogen at 5.4 € TTC and 7.9 kg / 1000 km  4.30 € / 100 km
With an electric at 0.01 kWh and 15 kW / 100 km  1.5 € / 100 km (excluding the cost of the 5-year battery life !! 600 € / kWh or 14000 €)
Add TIPP to please our policies!

3) Conclusion ???
I missed some things. We have technologies to ride with clean, quiet, economical vehicles with true energy independence.
FYI, the Mercedes F125 stores the H² with a magnesium hydride tank: http://www.moteurnature.com/actu/2011/m ... ybride.php
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by Remundo » 10/04/12, 19:40

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by Fakir » 10/04/12, 20:06

Remundo wrote:Hello Fakir,

You have to read the work of Ulf Bossel ...

Why an Hydrogen Economy does not make sense


Thank you for these links. We have the same results, the kWh consumed 3 times more expensive for H².
It does not take into account, as far as I'm concerned, the defects of electric vehicles:
-the cost of changing the batteries for the electric.
-the 8h battery recharge time for 3 mn
-the autonomy of 160 km for 1000 km

Hydrogen does not make us change our way of life and it's cheaper than gas!
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by chatelot16 » 10/04/12, 23:47

and you buy it or your hydrogen?

nothing but the hydrogen alone is more expensive than gasoline ... so with the storage costs in addition it is hopeless

before there is no more oil we can make artificial gasoline ... it was already done in germany during the last war

it's still done in south africa

it is also done to transform methane into oil

it seems easier to put what is heavy and complicated in a fixed factory to make a liquid fuel to run cars simple and light
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by Fakir » 11/04/12, 00:19

Reading your post, I realize the lack of pedagogy of my message.

chatelot16 wrote: Before there is more oil, you can make artificial gasoline ... it was already done in Germany during the last war. it is still done in south africa it is also done to transform methane into oil
You mention the Fischer-Tropsch process (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proc%C3%A9 ... er-Tropsch ) which allowed the Germans to continue to run on gasoline despite the continental blockade. Indeed, Sudaf Sasol is today a leader in this field, particularly on CPL (coil to liquid). CPL is the process that uses coal from our mines to make gasoline. Evoking this process on a site such as Econology is heresy. It should be known that this rejects the air in tons more CO2 than manufactured gasoline ... Of course the CPL is the most economical way to make gasoline (equivalent to a barrel around 80 €). There is BTL and LPG. To continue, I should open a new topic, I go there on off topic.


chatelot16 wrote:and you buy it or your hydrogen?
nothing but the hydrogen alone is more expensive than gasoline ... so with the storage costs in addition it is hopeless

In fact this link that I posted in my message: http://www.afh2.org/uploads/memento/Fic ... 202006.pdf
Is a study on the establishment of the H² die, that is to say from manufacturing to putting into service station. FYI, the full of H² takes 3 mn.
There are different studies on the manufacturing method. What is really interesting in H² is the possibility of manufacturing it from water and renewable energies by electrolysis directly in France.
And most importantly, for a lower cost than gasoline.
Today, with gasoline 1 € / L and 6L / 100 km in average conso, 100 km traveled cost 6 €. With a car at H² we arrive at 4.30 € for 100 km.
H² is cheaper than gasoline and productivity gains are still important!
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by chatelot16 » 11/04/12, 00:52

the synthesis of fischer tropsch has been used by using coal both as a source of carbon and energy

it is quite possible to do the same thing with a maximum of electric or solar energy, and to use coal only for carbon

even better carbon can come from wood or other biomass

there is little hope that wood alone is sufficient as a source of energy, but as a source of carbon to make liquid and easy to use other energy seems to me a way forward

I started working on this system and have already talked about econology ... I will try to find it
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by dedeleco » 11/04/12, 01:15

With algae, instead of wood, we can make oil, almost direct, and also with anything organic, so I think that liquid fuels easily transportable will continue to be used identically, given the current infrastructure.

Oil or salt-water fuel does not change anything, stores easily and does not occupy farmland, while recycling CO2.

In place of hydrogen there is liquid formic acid as well, for storing hydrogen.

The possibilities from the sun as fuels are immense, especially algae grown in deserts in salt lakes.

It seems profitable with the taxes on oil, but we will tax the same H2 !!!
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by chatelot16 » 11/04/12, 01:57

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by Fakir » 11/04/12, 10:28

dedeleco wrote:It seems profitable with the taxes on oil, but we will tax the same H2 !!!

Precisely, today it is profitable even by adding the TIPP. The calculation takes the gasoline 1 € TTC without TIPP.
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by Fakir » 11/04/12, 10:53

dedeleco wrote:In place of hydrogen there is liquid formic acid as well, for storing hydrogen.

Here, everything is a question of performance: in the Obamot topical, https://www.econologie.com/forums/electricit ... 10849.html the yield is 60%.
The topical on McPhy storage by magnesium hydride (houps I did not do it ...), will announce a yield of 97%. http://www.lejournaldesfluides.com/actu ... se-solide/
100 kg of H² is stored in 1 m3 at 10 bars.

After, the most interesting is the discontinuous production of H² all year round with sun or wind. Photovoltaic electricity is cheaper today than its nuclear cousin but its production is not on demand!
H² solar is the winning combo.
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