Energy cost and CO2 rejection of a train

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Energy cost and CO2 rejection of a train




by Christophe » 30/10/06, 15:09

By drafting this new I realized that we could retrieve the data we were looking for some time ago on the energy balance of a train.

I have not looked yet if the calculator of the SNCF made a difference between a conventional train and a TGV but I will verify this shortly.

Take a journey Lille-Marseille:

Image

About 1000 km.
The journey will cost 4,5 Kg of CO2 equivalent.

However France rejects on average 90 gr of CO2 per kwhe product.

A passenger costs 4,5 / 0,09 = 50 kWhe for 1000 km. These 50 kWhe will produce (80% of efficiency on the propulsion of the train) 40 mechanical kWh, ie 4 kwh mechanical for 100 km.

If it had been necessary to produce these 4kwh mechanics with a diesel engine of a yield of 35%, this last one would have consumed 4 / 0,35 * 10 = 1,14L diesel per passenger and for 100km.

As we do not know if the 90 grs / kwhe concern the end user or the production (thus taking into account or not the online losses) I abstain from any speculation to correct, increase or decrease these figures ... .
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by zac » 30/10/06, 18:07

Hello

the train goes to take me in my garden : Mrgreen:

piton st leu pierrefond 30km by car (20mn 0 €); stonefond orly 10000km (375 € 11hours); orly monparnasse 25km by bus (12 € 35mn) monparnasse valves 500km tgv (60 € 3h30 3kg co²); vannes st jean brevelay 23km car (3 € 12mn).

3kg of co² produced by the train to take me home; a few tons to take the train : Evil:

the train is cool if you are a city dweller and your job and your interests are downtown in good hours. For the rest of the population it is unusable : Cry:

it has no flexibility is overpriced and in addition to being attacked by the controllers we can not even smoke his premium cigarette.

@+
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by Polo » 01/11/06, 11:19

So I am dsl but I have to react! We became the problem but good tampis.
Zac I do not agree with you at all! First I have never been attacked by a controller, on the contrary! and you want to smoke in the train I do not want to smoke at all! the selfishness of the smokers always surprised me ... but there we speak more about the train so it's annoying but I could not let go.
I have a ticket for 4 € 50 Nancy-Metz, which lasts 3 / 4 h max, 3 / 4 h where I can read, rest, watch a movie, work stuff that you can not to do in the car. (it was just to refocus the subject)
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by zac » 01/11/06, 12:30

hi polo

Before in planes and trains we chose smoking or non-smoking: lol:; I do not think anybody ever makes you choose to smoke.

: Idea: Then respect the smokers they pay part of your safety and moreover they will pay a big part of your retirement.

without grudge, but the more it goes the less I support the restraints of freedom (we start with the cigarette we continue with the nettle and the HVP that it is the next, curfew ??????): evil:

@+


PS: nancy put it's 8.90 € not 4.50 €
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by Polo » 01/11/06, 13:10

Hi Zac,
First of all, it's nice to be able to talk about it calmly, as you do. Thank you, I did not want to take my head. So let's talk about normal people and not violent, as it happens on some forums.
In the restaurant or bar the non-smoking corner is not separate from the con smoker and it serves strictly nothing; then you can choose but it comes back to the same (The worst I saw is this provision in a restaurant: they alternated smoking and non-smoking tables) The smoke spread everywhere.
They pay maybe my safety but fortunately !! Because they risk not only their life (but that's their problem) and also that of their entourage !! Passive tobacco is devastating! So they increase the safety hole, it's clear! I do not respect smokers. Warning! I have lots of smoking buddies and I respect them but when I say that I do not respect a smoker it means that I do not respect his smoking side but I can respect him for something else. Do you understand? Smokers do not respect me so good, I have trouble.
the train nancy-Metz I take it often I can assure you that it is 4 € 50 with 12-25 years and 5 € otherwise. I take it often and I swear it's this price and I do not hide the truth.
@ + in the bus (not in the train apparently)
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by zac » 01/11/06, 14:31

Hello

The train I probably would not take, because I decided this summer not to set foot in France and home there is no train.
I'm older than 25 - 60 is not disabled so I pay full price the price I gave you this is the 2 class rate given by the sncf.

I was running a bar at the moment the law of evin was passed. We juggled during 3 months to please everyone, then I gave up and put the intolerant non-smokers (very few) on the terrace. I had never had a problem in 10 years of charter on small boats; people were tolerants since the law evin it's the farwest : Evil:

I meet every day ex businessman who have dump everything to live in madagascar or mauritius because he was too harassed in France; it's serious because a country without an entrepreneur is going downhill.

What I'm doing here with the pantones and the recovery oil (in plain view) would have brought me to the courts in France and yet it's good for the planet : Mrgreen:

@+
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by Christophe » 01/11/06, 14:32

Are you sure you did not meet a Pitbull? Humor recess : Mrgreen: but it's true that sometimes you get angry for nothing ... pay attention to your little heart !!
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by Polo » 01/11/06, 15:56

Resalut Zac (we will say 3 times hi 1 day!)
Do not you think there is a problem with non-smokers and smokers? Why should non-smokers breathe the smoke of others? In all the countries where they have banned the cig in public places the people are happy (after a few years), even smokers.
The train fare seems odd to me because a girlfriend who has no discount pays only 5 €.
But here we seize the subject and I am dsl christophe! (It's my fault) To refocus the subject: what is kWhe? it's kWh?
please
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by Christophe » 02/11/06, 19:47

Polo wrote:what is kWhe? it's kWh?
please


These are electric kWh ... not to be confused with (thermal) kWh because their "value" is not the same because it is not possible to produce 1 kWh with 1 thermal kWh.

Most of the time the kwh are still reserved for electricity but not all the time ....

For example 1 L of fuel "contains" (chemical combustion energy) 10 kwh but can only produce at best (combined cycle steam plant) 5 kwhe .... (50% efficiency)
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by nonoLeRobot » 03/11/06, 16:51

What I put on the blog it sticks almost here too:


That's fine I was looking for comments on the Ecocomparateur, it's just a shame, that yours are bad times ;-) as we had talked in private, I put why:

I agree the trips abroad are wrong since the report CO2 / Kw is not the same, but hey it is the sncF.

On the other hand, taking the theoretical autonomy (we do not wait for the plane to crash to see how much it has done plus the fact that it has a reserve of fuel) calculated on the fly cannot be used to calculate consumption. On the other hand it is true and it would have been interesting if it had been said that the consumption is based on the average results of Air France which certainly has a little more large planes than ATR therefore consuming a little less (how many between us take ATR?). For the long and short haul problem they differentiate <1000 and> 1000 but above all Jean) Marc Jancovici takes into account other greenhouse gases (including water vapor) which makes it go from simple to double but does not change nothing in terms of CO2.

For the car, no need to pretend to guess, it's showing everywhere that it's an ADEME / mappy partnership. Then compare an average car to a Twingo is laughable limit (There is much smaller). Finally why talk about the consumption of recent cars since the average age of cars must be 5 or 10 years.

In short, yes the Ecocomparateur, is a commercial operation that benefits the train (unfortunately a little plane) but we all agree that it's something good (the train) so I admit that it's me irritate a little this systematic aggression of bad time (because there might be real arguments) on something just because it is official or commercial.

In short it should actually make an analysis but serious ;-)
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