Gillier-Pantone on a Transporter T3

[jcf]

Hello everybody
this summer I installed a Gillier-Pantone on my bus (2,1L fuel injection), I made 1000 km with.
I made you a little PDF that summarizes the editing and my questions (including no decrease conso found ...).
All your comments and suggestions are welcome !!!
Do not hesitate, the PDF is very light (760 KB)!

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... ZEnPbE.pdf

Thank you in advance for your comments!
Jean-Christophe

[Christophe]

It is a beautiful editing and super report bravo!

Unfortunately it is a gasoline ... so the problem of the self regulation of diesel that is not present ... which must explain, at least in part, the lack of results in consumption ...

As for Guidi's idea: did you dope with water? But pkoi not to do a "fuel doping" regulated on the same principle precisely?

The candles after the doping indicates a degradation of the combustion on the other hand.

It's late here I'll look in detail tomorrow! Congratulations again!

[Other]

Hello

If you come under the sword, so big depression slowed down decreasing with the opening of the butterfly
you have to apply a nozzle reduction of 3 to 4 mm (3,2 mm in my case) at the reactor inlet Although to make a test you can place a washer with a hole in place of the anti-fist filter
the flow control has little influence on the engine ratio
This is the lambda probe that is predominant when it is in hot engine operation (close loop)
You must condemn the ERG valve.
the maximum power loss is probably due to too much exhaust restraint. (the position of the elbows 1 / 2 pipe not help in this small exhaust duct)
Candles should be whiter when doped with water
the final exhaust outlet on all catalyzed engines is black
in doping with water when it is well adjusted it becomes gray

The main problem at the beginning is to know if the water supply is adequate and constant, it is regularly necessary to make sure during a trip if the consomation water is good
it ends up getting clogged up and getting dirty
In an assembly entered under the throttle at high speeds the reactor lacks depression and consumption of water, at low speed it consumes too much water (misfiring engine) it is necessary that the small jet you find the right compromise for 110kmh or the most used speed on highway ..




Pose a jet then go to the next step that will give you some more gains ..
I disconnected the Lambda probe I connected it to Digital and I put a pot of adjustment on the MAP I maintain the ratio has 0,1 volts and even less (it depends or you will check the mass for the measurement)


I walk with a heated bubbler exhaust (too many problems with the qaulity of the water and especially the frost in winter)


Andre

[jcf]

Hello Christophe and André and thank you for your answers:
- Christophe:
=> yes, my final goal is to try to run this wonderful vehicle in 100% pantone, but I wanted to start quite simply by just spiking water before increasing the complexity.
=> I don't understand what you mean by gasoline: the problem with gasoline is that there is no self-regulation as with diesel? Or if, you mean that on gasoline you have to adjust the air / fuel ratio all the time while the diesel is always at maximum air flow?

- André:

If you come under the sword, so big depression slowed down decreasing with the opening of the butterfly
you have to apply a nozzle reduction of 3 to 4 mm (3,2 mm in my case) at the reactor inlet Although to make a test you can place a washer with a hole in place of the anti-fist filter
the flow control has little influence on the engine ratio

A priori, there is no problem of depression, it is all the time above 70 cm of water that you recommend. Indeed, the depressometer that I connected to the arrival of the Reactor in the airbox tells me all the time minimum 5 INS / Hg, even in heavy load (full acceleration, loaded vehicle, in actual use. stopping by varying the engine speed, so without load, the depression remains almost permanently close to 10 INS / Hg, so 2 m water). I do not know the INS / Hg, but a test with a bowl of water beside me allowed me to determine that 70 cm of water = 3,5 INS / Hg approximately.

This is the lambda probe that is predominant when it is in hot engine operation (close loop)
You must condemn the ERG valve.

No, no gene on that side, the cataleptic pots were not raging yet by us at this time! , -P

the maximum power loss is probably due to too much exhaust restraint. (the position of the elbows 1 / 2 pipe not help in this small exhaust duct)

On it I'm 100% agree with you. I think it's my mistake, sniff .. '- (.I think the full benefits of the PMC are lost in the energy needed to evacuate the gases, so I stuck the reactor tight in the front of the tube to have room to put the GVI in it too (I wanted a compact and easily removable design.The problem is that I am stuck, the beginning of the reactor is in the mouth of the pipe, and I absolutely can not not to enlarge it because of the fixing system to the previous pipe, so I have to move the reactor back into the tube, and I think I'll have to transplant the GVI into the muffler.The horror what, I have to redo everything, arghhhhhh!

Candles should be whiter when doped with water
the final exhaust outlet on all catalyzed engines is black
in doping with water when it is well adjusted it becomes gray

Very good I note it!

The main problem at the beginning is to know if the water supply is adequate and constant, it is regularly necessary to make sure during a trip if the consomation water is good
it ends up getting clogged up and getting dirty

Well then that's a bit of the problem with the constant level tank. At first I had the impression that it worked, and I looked several times during the trip, but how to check it in the facts while driving (although the vibrations should help him not not to hang).
Another problem is how to ensure that the GVI delivers enough water for the engine? I calculated it from the wiki data, but what proves that the engine could not consume more?
This is why at the beginning I wanted to put instead of the GVI a water injector replicating the signal of the main injectors (and allowing me via an electronic circuit like that of Patrick Guidi to dose more or less strong compared to gasoline consumed in parallel). Patrick tells me that the injector risks seizing (normal, the water does not lubricate), but does it not exist in "water friendly" version?

In addition to the limestone in the GVI? Because you, you recommend a limestone water to break the reactor, but at home the water is very limestone, so I preferred to pass to the Brita before injecting it into the engine for fear of clogging my GVI (d how else do we do to make a GVI last, which has already been a lot of km with, it takes from time to time to vinegar, etc.?) ...

In an assembly entered under the throttle at high speeds the reactor lacks depression and consumption of water, at low speed it consumes too much water (misfiring engine) it is necessary that the small jet you find the right compromise for 110kmh or the most used speed on highway ..

No, that I do not think I had this problem. As I said before, the depression is very good (the place where I positioned the exit of the gases of the reactor in the box of air has really a conical form which must provide a good venturi effect).

Pose a jet then go to the next step that will give you some more gains ..

There I do not understand where you want me to put a jet.
Or in the sense of what you proposed to Pitmix here:
montages injection water / renault-super-5 al-doped water-t1110-60.html

but me there is no injected water in the venturi, but the gas that comes from the reactor.

I look forward to following this discussion!

Jean-Christophe

[Other]

Hello

There I do not understand where you want me to put a jet.
Or in the sense of what you proposed to Pitmix here:
montages injection water / renault-super-5 al-doped water-t1110-60.html

but me there is no injected water in the venturi, but the gas that comes from the reactor.

The word jet is not appropriate, it is rather a restriction in the conduit out of the reactor.
After different tests I put a wood valve on the reactor outlet pipe and I got better performance with a valve almost closed, it corresponds approximately to a reduction of the pipe of a 3,2mm,
Subsequently this restriction I placed directly at the exit of the bubbler that is 2 years that I walk like that ..
Consumption of water is lower on gasoline engine than a diesel of the same cylinder, too much water vapor on the gasoline engine it is an overconsumption and misfires ..

Water level control will always be a problem
On the diesel I opted for a water spraying in the GV on demand, I walked for a while with an electric probe that told me if the GV had water, but also it corroded electrically , now I send directly a certain amount of controlled water, when the sytéme is hot
the water I use most often the one pumped in my well which is rather sediment, I pass it in a filter gasoline auto before it enters the sytéme (I change the fitre 3 times per year)

For your dial It is inches of mercury 30 inches correspond to the atmospheric pressure (again it depends on how your scale is graduated if at rest the dial indicates zero and when in depression it goes towards 30 "it is the absolute vacuum)

I do not understand what you mean by essence: the problem with gasoline is that there is no self-regulation as on diesel? Or if, you mean that on gasoline it is necessary all the time to adjust the air / fuel ration while the diesel is always at maximum air flow?

I do not know what sytéme of regulation ratio on your car, but if you do not have a Lambda probe and that you send steam in the intake manifold under the butterfly, the steam takes the place of a certain volume of air, this finds enriches the mixture, because the air is measured at the input, the flow of gasoline is calculated according to the air measured.
Normally with an absence of control of wealth in doping with water if you enter under a carburettor you make a
surconsomation ..

If you add 20% of water vapor under the butterfly you need a sytéme to adjust the ration in order to keep it 1 / 15 like the Lambda probe and even less you will see that in doping with water a motor can withstand poorer mixture without damage, in the absence of measurement in steady driving you impoverished until you feel a slight drop in power, then you enriched slightly so as not to lose power ..

Andre

[jcf]

Hello
After different tests I put a wood valve on the reactor outlet pipe and I got better performance with a valve almost closed, it corresponds approximately to a reduction of the pipe of a 3,2mm

Okay, do you mean that I should somehow place a second, smaller tube in the brass tube that goes into my airbox?

But is it necessary since I have a good depression around 2 m water permanently (the plug for information is after the T brass)?

Subsequently this restriction I placed directly at the exit of the bubbler that is 2 years that I walk like that ..

Do you mean that now you are injecting bubbler production directly into the engine without going through a reactor?

Water level control will always be a problem
On the diesel I opted for a water spraying in the GV on demand, I walked for a while with an electric probe that told me if the GV had water, but also it corroded electrically , now I send directly a certain amount of controlled water, when the sytéme is hot
the water I use most often the one pumped in my well which is rather sediment, I pass it in a filter gasoline auto before it enters the sytéme (I change the fitre 3 times per year)

Nevertheless, it seems to me that the most reliable solution would be a water injector, right? Nobody here ever crossed that? As for the pump, there are camping car water pumps that turn to 3 bars, it seems a lot. But what I wanted to do for the tests was to find two nannies (one for water, one for a fuel) of motor boat and inflate them to 2 bars with a small compressor. That way there is no problem on the pump side, however you have to find injectors that support all kinds of fuels. But at least it would allow to approach the ideal dosage in a relatively scientific way, by setting all that compared to the calculation of the injection, what do you think?

For your dial It is inches of mercury 30 inches correspond to the atmospheric pressure (again it depends on how your scale is graduated if at rest the dial indicates zero and when in depression it goes towards 30 "it is the absolute vacuum)

Here it is :

I do not know what sytéme of regulation ratio on your car, but if you do not have a Lambda probe and that you send steam in the intake manifold under the butterfly, the steam takes the place of a certain volume of air, this finds enriches the mixture, because the air is measured at the input, the flow of gasoline is calculated according to the air measured.

My injection system is a Bosch Dijijet. That is to say that there is an electronic flowmeter that weighs the weight of the swallowed by the engine at the output of the air filter and allows the computer to inject the corresponding amount of gasoline. A little further is the throttle (exactly as on the Corsa Patrick Guidi). So not to disturb too much my calculator, I plugged the inlet air intake of the reactor between the flowmeter and the butterfly.

So normally, all the air consumed by the PMC is taken into account by the computer. On the other hand, if it is necessary to consider that the water which turns into vapor in the GVI, comes to add a kind of "mass of air" consumed by the engine, then indeed, my computer will inject too little gasoline by compared to the "air volume" since the part of the steam will not have been taken into account. But I thought that would be a negligible volume compared to the m3 of air that an engine swallows per minute, right?
And then in such a case, it seems to me that suddenly the mixture should be too poor, not too rich?

Normally with an absence of control of wealth in doping with water if you enter under a carburettor you make a
surconsomation ..

Ben that then, it seems counterintuitive. That we do not realize the totality of the economy if we do not rule the poorer engine because the PMC allows him this new mixture, I can understand, but that it starts to consume more, it m 'me Escape ... Do you have an explanation for that?
Otherwise, it's true that my engine runs faster at idle now (in the 1100 rpm instead of 850), and even since I removed the PMC, I'm not sure what it's due to? For now I attributed it to the scrubbing of my injector, which would make that at idle, more fuel is injected than necessary, which makes the engine run faster

If you add 20% of water vapor under the butterfly you need a system to adjust the ration in order to keep 1 / 15 like the Lambda probe and even less you will see that in water doping a motor can withstand poorer mixture without damage, in the absence of measurement in steady driving you impoverished until you feel a slight drop in power, then you enriched slightly so as not to lose power ..

Ok, well my injection was planned to be upgraded to a catalytic converter, so it might be enough to find the corresponding lambda probe. But it does not run the streets ...

Thank you, thank you André for this constructive discussion !!

Jean-Christophe

[manoria68]

Hello !

So here I am, I also started the multi fuel adventure,

I was inspired by the realization of opel corsa: fixtures-injection water / engine pantone-sur-opel-corsa-1000-t1027.html

I created electronic secondary injection ramp and reactor, same principle.

It works very well whatever the fuel idling (SP, diesel, oil, oil), it is impressive!
my car is gasoline ...



The concern is that at idle, all the air absorbed by the engine passes through the reactor.
At acceleration, the pressure drop prevents the engine from taking turns.
And if I create an air intake to allow the engine to take turns, the reactor does not seem to work properly.

I'll put pictures later because I'm new and I have not figured it out yet. forum


I also have the option to let plug 1 injector on 4 and do the doping with water (25%) with my system.

In addition the signal recovery su my secondary ramp allows me to increase the wealth of doping during accelerations

[manoria68]

as promised, here are the pictures:

secondary injection rail:


Connection upstream of the idle solenoid valve: (white chifon to filter)


voila voila

therefore its idling (whatever the fuel) at closing to block the air intake of the air filter.
In acceleration, the reactor prevents the air from arriving quickly enough and the engine does not rise in the towers.
As soon as I shut off the air supply from the air filter, the reactor no longer seems to work.

I think we have to overdimit the reactor and the diameter of my hoses and get all the air through the reactor.

OR:

Forcing the air into the reactor (upstream of the secondary injection rail) (exhaust gas or mini turbo)
to promote the supply of poisoned gas in front of the idle solenoid valve

What do the specialists think?

[jcf]

Hello !

So here I am, I also started the multi fuel adventure,

I was inspired by the realization of opel corsa: https://www.econologie.com/forums/opel-corsa ... 7-100.html

I created electronic secondary injection ramp and reactor, same principle.

Awesome ! Welcome ! And you also remade all the electronic card replication of the injection signal? Did you take Patrick Guidi's or NLC's solution?

It works very well whatever the fuel idling (SP, diesel, oil, oil), it is impressive!
my car is gasoline ...

You put oil in fuel injectors and it works ???? Is it an electric pump that propels everything or a more exotic installation?

The concern is that at idle, all the air absorbed by the engine passes through the reactor.
At acceleration, the pressure drop prevents the engine from taking turns.
And if I create an air intake to allow the engine to take turns, the reactor does not seem to work properly.

This is strange, because if you have connected the reactor inlet between the flowmeter and the throttle, and the output of the reactor after the throttle, it should not too much disturb the engine.

so it idles (whatever the fuel) to close the air intake air filter.

Well that's strange, you should not have to close the air!

In acceleration, the reactor prevents the air from arriving quickly enough and the engine does not rise in the towers.
As soon as I shut off the air supply from the air filter, the reactor no longer seems to work.

The best would probably be that you find a way to make a good venturi effect on the output of the reactor, if you look at my PDF at the beginning of this post (and will see in the discussion on the R5 Pitmix, André well explained how to do a venturi). Mine has a super depression at all speeds and accelerations.
Also try to check the depression at the exit of your reactor with a transparent pipe and a bowl of water as advised André (but hey, I'm far from being a specialist PMC here!) Mine only works in doping , not yet in multi-fuel, even if that's the end goal ... André, Christophe ?? Where are you?).

I think we need to oversize the reactor and the diameter of my hoses and get all the air through the reactor.

Especially not !

OR:

Forcing the air into the reactor (upstream of the secondary injection rail) (exhaust gas or mini turbo)
to promote the supply of poisoned gas in front of the idle solenoid valve

Neither, the secret according to our great specialists, it is the depression at the exit of the reactor, thus plays imperatively above all on the depression at the exit of your reactor with a venturi.

If you want, in a way, the principle is as follows: your car until now swallowed air (oxidizer) (via air filter, flowmeter and butterfly) and a little before going into the cylinders, gasoline (fuel) was sprayed with it to produce an explosive mixture.
In the PMC, you replace the gas with a gas produced by the reactor (a new fuel).
So you must always have an oxidizer (a large pack of fresh air) that arrives at the engine as before, but instead of adding gasoline spray, you add a gas. So this gas (the amount of air that passes through the reactor and will receive the fuel from your secondary ramp to become a gas in the reactor), is only a small part of all the air that the engine . As it is still a part of air swallowed more by the engine, one plugs the inlet between the flowmeter and the throttle so that the injection takes into account this additional volume and can adjust the idle. But otherwise we could very well take this air elsewhere (directly out with a small paper filter not to put dirt in the engine).
You will never be able to put everything in a reactor, it will be too hard to adjust and then it's a safe bet that there is such a flow that it completely cools the reactor and suddenly the reaction that creates the gas does not not be done (besides that there will never be the good depression at the exit of this reactor at all the regimes).

So really, polish your venturi (post on the R5, the WikiPantone also speaks it seems to me, I hope you saw the advice of André and Christophe), do not pass all the air in the reactor, and I think your car is going to work!

I also have the option to leave 1 injector plugged into 4 and do some water doping (25%) with my system.

Do you mean that you inject the water directly through the injectors, no bubbler or GVI?
Rhaaaa, put more pictures of your editing, give us a detailed report !!!!

In addition the signal recovery su my secondary ramp allows me to increase the wealth of doping during accelerations

What do you mean ?
Did you make an adaptation of the electronic assembly to take acceleration into account?

Well, it looks great all that, do not hesitate to detail a little more your editing!
See you soon,
Jean-Christophe

[manoria68]

Okay, so in order my editing:

For the signal recovery, it is copied identically to that of the original injection. (used function of the card)



I also have the possibility to send a PWM signal, so to send a sygnal in injectors cyclic variable variable (not used) in french: open injectors 0 100% but this function is not used.


The signal thus feeds a secondary injection ramp placed in the passenger compartment.



This feeds the reactor.

It is powered by a tank mounted separately from the car



of course, we can go from one energy to another by cutting the fuel pump of the car or pantone


Here is the reactor with some descriptions:



And the connection to the motor: