The car Biogas

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
jonule
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The car Biogas




by jonule » 30/08/13, 14:45

not wanting to pollute the subject on "electric car: polluting?", I am opening here a small subject on the biogas car.

The source of carbon-neutral energy, less expensive at the pump than diesel fuel (classified as carcinogenic by the WHO) and which emits no fine particles, is biogas. The utility of using this bio-methane? 1000 is more harmful than CO2 in terms of greenhouse effect, instead of letting the gas go into the wild, it is used in a vehicle instead of fossil fuel. Its production, like a stomach, also produces fertilizer.

not to be confused with the GDF distributed GND which is a fossil energy, some networks incorporate a% biogas from methanization waste, which are produced every day.
at home (there is a compressor to connect to refuel at home). then we speak of either Gnv or bioGnv, according to.
LPG is derived from the production of oil during refining, it is also a fossil fuel, greenhouse effect therefore.

I post you some links that I find interesting, for my part it is a vehicle to GNV that I would like, knowing that the share of biogas in the GNV will always be growing. there are also 100% biogas networks:
"
It had 31 / 12 / 2009 23 000 vehicles running on natural gas in Sweden. They are refueling at 104 stations, and they consumed last year, 67 million m³ of natural gas (NGV). This volume is up 16% compared to 2008, but a larger figure is that within this amount of CNG, the proportion of biogas is also rising. 27%, to achieve that 65% of the GNV consumed in Sweden is of renewable origin. This is often biogas from the methanization of organic waste, and some stations put the fact forward, selling pure biogas, uncut with natural gas of fossil origin.
"
http://www.moteurnature.com/actu/uneact ... s_id=25381

it will be understood, the whole is not to roll with GNV of fossil origin but to use a GNV which contains biogas and what + in +. And it's once again a political will ...

So why is biogas shunned in France? with so much waste, agriculture and chères! =)
http://www.moteurnature.com/actu/uneact ... s_id=26344

the time of the C3 is a little past since:
Image
http://www.moteurnature.com/GPL-LPG-GNV ... ssiles.php

the filling stations:
http://www.gnvert-gdfsuez.com/fr/gaz-na ... mplissage/

the ExpoBiogaz trade show (in fev2013 in Lyon):
http://www.afgnv.info/Les-inscriptions- ... _a234.html

other sources of articles:
http://www.moteurnature.com/biogaz-biom ... elable.php
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by Remundo » 30/08/13, 15:59

you did well Jonule : Idea:
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by Did67 » 30/08/13, 16:31

I couldn't find any data on the time to "compress" and fill a tank.

The "small compressors" delivered with the C3 took several hours ...

Now, the majority of methanation stations produce electricity and heat (cogeneration).

So this will pose the same problem of "arbitrage" between uses: we will not be able to produce electricity to reduce the share of nuclear power, and supply cars, vehicles, buses ... !!! There will not be enough "biomass" [which is used primarily to feed us ... wood is used for timber and heating ... therefore nature's capacity to rapidly convert solar energy in chemical energy has some physical limitations! Even if it is much more efficient than solar heaters!]

(Warning, I have nothing against biomethane! https://www.econologie.com/forums/bio-methan ... 12512.html )
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by chatelot16 » 30/08/13, 18:36

the small compressor provided by gdf a long time ago was slow

it is possible to do faster with a large buffer tank already filled to the right pressure: it only has to open a tap and it's as fast as refueling

the problem is the safety of the tanks at 2 bar the slightest corrosion is catastrophic

it is easy to give the gas from the metahnizer to a gogeneration engine: to compress the gas and fill tanks without corrosion it takes a much more serious purification

I think it is better to compress the methane clean of gdf to put in the vehicles, and to use methane gas in generators that easily accept this gas grossly purified

once again the regulations in force do not favor the right solution: compressing the methane of gdf is legally complicated

a farmer who wants to compress the methane of his methanizer may want to do it without asking anyone

the danger of corrosion of steel tanks is serious! 200 bar is real bomb

with carbon fiber tanks it could be a problem in less, and in addition it is less heavy ... alas it is more expensive,
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by Did67 » 31/08/13, 09:18

chatelot16 wrote:
tanks at 2 bar


I guess you meant: 200 bars ???
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by chatelot16 » 31/08/13, 11:22

you suppose well! it's a shame not to be able to edit his message ... it's always the next day that I see this kind of error
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by Did67 » 31/08/13, 12:49

Agree with your previous post.

Difficulty: play personal or play colectiv!

"I am neutral in this or that" - a strong temptation [best proof of what I have developed elsewhere on PV, applied to myself!]

OU

a "smart grid" in which everyone "injects" at a lower cost and recovers what is most appropriate, the overall balance being zero ...

So yes, biomethane is corrosive and "polluted" (especially by H2S, very corrosive, including stainless steel !!!!). And very complicated to clean up before injection into the network. Hence draconian standards. Technically justified if we do not want to corrode the network, valves, etc.

And so yes, it is not easy to store / transport in an individual vehicle ...

And the best is still to valorize it by cogeneration, in a fixed "controlled" installation ... This energy will replace the consumption of natural gas somewhere - in the case of the example that I describe elsewhere, the heat sold allows not to consume natural gas. So this energy, indirectly, is available in the form of clean natural gas! On condition therefore of "playing collectively" and reasoning "globally" ...
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by jonule » 09/09/13, 09:59

everyone has the right to have their opinion on the question of the use of biogas, for my part it is obligatory in sweden as biofuel, it is extended in Germany, and almost nonexistent in France!
if you have to give your opinion, then I will be for 1000 times more installations of this type!
indeed, the heat networks created by these groupings (not counting the reinjected electricity) make it possible to dispense with electric (nuclear) radiators, etc.
biogas is corrosive, the others too, but filtration exists nowadays, we must know it! =)

you must know that the biomass that this gas uses is mainly waste! we do not eat with it, it even participates in the diet since we can spread the fertilizer provided later!
except that this natural fertilizer (again, organic and non-chemical) did not let its methane 1000 times worse than the CO2 go to warm the atmosphere.

when I see right now all the trucks that deliver their cargo of dung / straw mix, which the farmers had wisely arranged in the form of a foul hill that spoils the landscape and stinks, because they are full of gas, and which attract the flies ... mmmh it feels good progress!

one wonders: what does it cost to bring them into a methanizer? investment for the planet?
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by Did67 » 09/09/13, 12:36

Do not get tired of preaching a convinced [see: https://www.econologie.com/forums/bio-methan ... 12-30.html

It remains that if one starts from a deposit (which is anything but unlimited !!!) given, the question arises of the mode of use:

a) 1 channel: I produce my biogas, I run a cogenerator; heat is used - in the case described for the hot water needs of a plant; electricity is injected into the network; where it can serve, especially to advance electric vehicles

b) 2 channel: I produce my biogas; I compress it (no sasn difficulty and appreciable energy consumption!); I burn it in my thermal car; which apart from the occupants in winter, only heats the atmopshere; for the whole society, the valuation will be less good ...

This is just my thinking. Here is what means in my mind: "to play collectively" (that is to say to consider all the needs on a given territory and optimiser ; the word "collective", which I took in reference to football, is unfortunate because it makes one think of communism ...). [In football, the central defender who rarely scores contributes to the victory!]
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by chatelot16 » 09/09/13, 13:22

as long as there is still heating oil in France it would be better to replace fuel oil boiler with methane boiler, and let the fuel to vehicles

the use of methane in vehicles requires heavy tanks is expensive; it's really profitable only for buses that make a circuit quite short and can often fill to be content with a tank not too big

conversely send the biomethane into the gdf network, has no big inconvenient

there is only one problem: the control of the quality: a good purification of gas is possible: at the time of the gas factory which made the gas by distilling coal one knew how to make clean gas whereas without good purification was as corrosive as biogas ... but it was gasworks! with a lot of staff to make everything work
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