sustainability of ethanol fuel?

[chatelot16]

I also use ethanol E85 badly named bioethanol, since it has nothing biological

some topics were closed following the exes of pub

but everything has not been said ... is it possible to finish the discussions seriously?

there is no miracle there is less energy in ethanol than in gasoline, so it consumes more for the same use

ethanol has 0,85 euro per liter 0,8 times less energy
0,85 / 0,8 = 1,06 euro / liter
even if we are not sure that it is ecological it is at least economical

I use it in small gensets whose I have enlarged the nozzle to adapt the wealth

I also use it in a surprising way in a motorcycle 50cm3 who was struggling with gasoline because of the main jet used, which was wasting gasoline and foul the candle: with ethanol is all good

important note: the oil of 2 time does not mix the ethanol: it is essential to have an oil pump lubrication

ethanol production by sugar fermentation and distillation does not seem to me very economically profitable ... but the beterave does not produce a very good sugar: the beterave sugar is not even edible without complicated chemical refinement .. the production of beterave sugar is less and less competitive with cane sugar ... ethanol may be a backup solution for the cultivation of beetroot

we can not say that ethanol eats plastic: there are even certain materials that are resistant to ethanol and that do not support gasoline: for example silicone, good for model engines reduced to methanol and bad for gasoline

Since there is ethanol in the unleaded all gasoline vehicles are subject to this problem, I had old cars with leaky fuel pipes and gas pumps diaphragm punctured for cause unleaded full of crap, and not necessarily ethanol

now that the unleaded did peter all that was not solid enough I can use ethanol when it seems to me economically interresting

having a motor adaptable to ethanol is not only useful for ethanol: it will also be used to use methanol and acetone produced by wood pyrolysis! more ecologically interesting than methanol

instead of burning the wood for heat ... the pyrolyser before produces a quantity of liquid fuel methanol net acetone good to take, and it heats almost as much

[Flytox]

important note: the oil of 2 time does not mix the ethanol: it is essential to have an oil pump lubrication

It works on 2 time a little pushed?

having a motor adaptable to ethanol is not only useful for ethanol: it will also be used to use methanol and acetone produced by wood pyrolysis! more ecologically interesting than methanol

instead of burning the wood for heat ... the pyrolyser before produces a quantity of liquid fuel methanol net acetone good to take, and it heats almost as much

Can you explain to us how you produce this methanol and acetone? Acetone and joints ... ????? it's good?

[chatelot16]

important note: the oil of 2 time does not mix the ethanol: it is essential to have an oil pump lubrication

It works on 2 time a little pushed?

it works on a derbi senda that always turns to the bottom and who is not afraid of 100km / h ... who has already changed several times piston cylinder ... but not more often since it turns to ethanol

and even, now I understood that the cylinders in nickasil used more quickly the segment ... I disassemble from time to time to change only the segment, and there is more to change everything

In gasoline it was necessary to change the candle quite often otherwise it did not start, candle always black ... since ethanol no change of candle it remains clean, it wears and the spacing increases ... when c it's too much light, I twist the ground electrode to reduce the gap and go back for a ride

finally I think it would be the same thing to gasoline if I could easily reduce wealth

a blackout certainly due to ethanol: after each extended stop the engine was full of liquid ... impossible to pass the compression without removing the candle ... it was the depression valve that had the membrane that leaks: this kind of valve opens automatically by the depression of the carbu: leak leaked the fuel in the carbu until filling the engine completely!

the bearing of the crankshaft are not yet dead after having taken several times this complete filling

[chatelot16]

Can you explain to us how you produce this methanol and acetone? Acetone and joints ... ????? it's good?

when we heat wood in a vacuum, it emits all kinds of steam ... it is reported as with a still and it makes acetone methanol, acetic acid, tar, water .. and some other cochonerie

it was done in 1850 when the alcohol was burnt was called spirit of wood

the rest of the wood after this distillation is charcoal

it is the best method of making charcoal because all the other components of the wood are recovered, and this methanol is more valuable than charcoal

acetone was used as fuel before 1940 ... but at the time all the pipework was metalic ... the diferent plastic were not yet invented

it is not only the pyrolysis of wood to make charcoal: the gasogene does the same thing: the wood comes close to the hearth and is pyrolyzed before producing carbon monoxide which is the main product of the gas. .. a good gas purification system recovering the condensable product ... the engine consumes the non-storable gas ... the purification system recupere a small amount of methanol acetone and acetic acid interressant to make liquid fuel

[Christophe]

The subject of the econological interest of ethanol fuel has been debated at length, wide and cross on the occasion of the release of E85 ... that is to say, a while ago ... selected pieces:

At the CNAM:
https://www.econologie.com/video-biocarb ... -3006.html

extract:



Global balance sheet:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/agro-bioca ... t6888.html

On the CO2: https://www.econologie.com/forums/biocarbura ... t5840.html

Ethanol or ETBE? https://www.econologie.com/forums/carburant- ... t2371.html

For more information, do a search: https://www.econologie.com/forums/search.php

[Did67]

As a first approximation, the "greenhouse effect" balance above is also the balance of fossil energy compared to solar energy.

I summarize :

- in principle, ethanol (like the diester, in the "diesel" route) whatever the plant, it should be sugar, resulting from photosynthesis, transformed by natural fermentation (by yeasts);

- if the production was "natural", the "CO²" or fossil fuel balance would be excellent; it would be sun "in bars" (finally in jerrycans)

- Alas, in our agriculture, it is essentially fossil energy in ... jerrycan; basically, fossil energy put in the machinery engines to produce, transport, the agricultural product + the (nuclear?) energy of the plant to process this product + fossil energy contained in fertilizers (roughly: 3 l of fuel for 1 kg of nitrogen fertilizer)

- the "weak" reduction in the C balance that we see on the graph is the translation of the deplorable energy balance of our agriculture! [which is also true for our food: instead of eating the sun in bars, we eat about half of the oil in bars!); few people have thought about the "revolution" (or the slap!) which awaits us in the 20 or 30 years if, as one might think, the price of oil soars. Our agricultural "model" is on the ground !!!

[The poor have not just finished getting cold in the winter; they will also be hungry all year long! For the same reason]

- in short, for me, to remove from the production of food such surfaces to "scrape" 20 to 60% "only" of the greenhouse effect is ridiculous (even if in percentage it is a lot); we should drop to 5% of greenhouse gases (or CO² of fossil origin); there, it would be worth considering.

- there, basically, it's "greenwashing" by the lobby of beet and cereal growers !! [against the backdrop of bioethanol tax exemption! Another tax niche !!!]

And therefore, for me, "1st generation" ethanol (or diester) (by biting agricultural surfaces producing food products) is quite simply a dead end, a wrong path, except to partake of a fierce Malthusianism (and even: if we drastically limit births today, the effect will be felt in 50 years).

Another debate would be the question of second and third generation "biofuels" (residues not valued energetically or "above ground" production).

We must be aware that the 1st "bioethanol" plan (that of Villepin) was the result of powerful lobbying by wheat and beet producers, at a time when Europe was still overall in overproduction. Since then, the situation changes, agricultural prices rise (wheat and corn X 2 or 3!); with already stensions on agricultural products (pasta, flour, colaz oil ...).

So when chatelot says that it is economically profitable: yes, because very little taxed compared to petroleum derivatives! Without taxes, with our model of agriculture, it is better to directly burn the oil in our engines, rather than sacrifice millions of hectares to possibly multiply 1 l of fuel in 1,5 l of bioethanol !!! It's not Jesus, this thing!

[chatelot16]

as for all there is no perfect miracle solution

I agree that it would be a shame to create a food shortage to make fuel alcohol

but all food crops are byproducts

wheat, but, beterave, fruit of insufficient quality to be sold at a good price: it is useful to have alternative solution to avoid mixing poor quality products

the fermentation of all that is sweet is a good way to enhance the output of perishable production ... once in alcohol it is storable and salable

the regulation and exessive taxation of any alcohol is detrimental to the recovery of sweet waste by fermentation while it is fesable at a small scale in the world

distilling the fermented product consumes a lot of energy because there is only 4 or 5% alcohol: it consumes a lot of energy to boil the water ... this energy can be recovered to condensation but it's never perfect and it takes a real gas plant to minimize energy loss

except if we distil in winter and the still serves as a means of heating: distillation becomes energetically free

the little stream make the big rivers ... there is no quick fix ... there is a lot of small solution that it will be necessary to use all

no need to be against ethaniol fuel because some culture does not seem ecologically valid ... any evolution multicarbur engine is good to take

the liberalization of the regulations on the distillation is neccessaire: it will be easier if the alcohol becomes a running fuel and not only a drink

it is already a good thing that gasoline is considered as a valid means of denaturing alcohol ... whoever wants to distil fermented product at home, can mix them immediately with a little gas to have the same thing than E85 over-the-counter ... and not pure alcohol from illegal production

it would have been difficult to require cars with pipes and joints of quality adapted to ethanol ... thanks to the ethanol present in ordinary unleaded gasoline the manufacturer was obliged to do it: it is a good thing that will facilitate the introduction of alternative fuel

improving the multi-engine quality of the engine is a good thing to prepare for the future even if we have doubts about the ecological quality of the production of this ethanol

[Did67]

but all food crops are byproducts

wheat, but, beterave, fruit of insufficient quality to be sold at a good price: it is useful to have alternative solution to avoid mixing poor quality products

1) I clearly specified "bioethanol from 1th generation".

2) Unfortunately, we are not in an ideal world: bioethanol, whether it is made in the Paris basin from beetroot or Roquette in Beinheim in Alsace is from of corn or wheat is bought on the market, from which food sugar or flour could have been produced as well. (or animal feed).

Alas. It's like that in the world of agribusiness. If there was any heart, that would be known (and would be seen in the third world).

I maintain that today, take bioethanol at a pump, it's supporting an agricultural lobby who sees in this market (subsidized if we want to consider that "taxing it less than oil" is the equivalent of a subsidy) a means of increasing business.

Nothing to do with the distallation of waste ... Again, alas.

If you know a little about the agricultural world and the "sectors", you know that these (cereals, beets) are not the most "difficult" sectors. With the surge in grain prices, grain farmers have rubbed their hands. With them, the dealers of agricultural equipment (prestigious "investments" are made, just so as not to "explode" the profits!).

Farmers (who also buy cereals) pay for the breakage. Fortunately, there is also an increase in the price of meat, driven by exports (not the domestic market, not enough wealthy people who can buy meat without flinching). So, they balance ...

3) I maintain that "consuming 2 L of oil equivalent in fertilizer and fuel in agricultural machinery to ultimately produce 3 L of ethanol is not a viable model!"

4) There are some by-products (straws for example), but beware, the agronomist that I'm screaming because these by-products are also biomass absolutely necessary for soil life and an agricultural model more balanced (the straw turns into humus).

It is also a puppy of carbon (agriculture could have an immense role to play in the storage of CO² if one wanted to return to an ecologically intensive agriculture, with rates of organic matter in the soil = CO² captured; the chemical farmer, we are out!

5) No, in my opinion, the only massively available "natural fuel" deposit is wood (apart from possible petroleum algae factories); 50% of the French forest is underexploited.

But my choice (it's also yours for that matter) is first of all to use wood as a solid heating fuel, in replacement of fuel oil. It is much easier, automatic (pellets) and immediately available with "peanuts" investments!

6) My model would be:

a) "ecologically intensive" agriculture on the best lands (ridding them, please, of energy crops that are not, given the mediocre energy balance that I have just mentioned; it is rather a "grennwashing" of oil! A hold-up of a lobby and one more scam of those who think of driving "green")

b) "animal gathering" on less good land (dedicated to meadows): production of milk, meat, cheese by herbivores raised as worthy herbivores - therefore who graze (and not fed on soya and cereals in a stall) ; maintenance of "open" mid-mountain landscapes

c) the forest elsewhere, with full development of production: timber (= a carbon sink), fuelwood [reserved for "high performance" boilers (electronic combustion control); and no con inserts, nut frying pans, etc ...]

By dint of "greening" everything, too many people lose all common sense.

Bioethanol 1ère generation (I repeat) is a perfect illustration of these wanderings conceptually.

All this is only my opinion (agronomist by training all the same, but that does not guarantee anything! Even if I am more on the side of Dumont than those of Pechiney). And of course it applies to the climatic zone "France" ...

[chatelot16]

Do you think it would be a good thing to completely block the development of a multi-fuel engine because some bioethanol is more or less environmentally friendly?

it's like the electric car that you can find absurd because it uses mainly nuclear electricity, but it is a good way to use new energy!

when will a more ecological fuel be available that will invent the right engine instantly by miracle?

the availability of this ethanol is a way to experiment with fuel other than gasoline

buying bioethanol I favor nothing at all since anyway the amount produced is low ... when I buy 10 liter more the others will have 10 liter less and it does not change anything ... it does not there will be no ethanol pump everywhere as long as there is no other means of production

I think much more about methanol, not only pyrolysis of wood but also fischer tropsh ...

[Did67]

1) I have nothing against you in particular. I contribute, with my reflection, to the title "ecological viability of fuel ethanol".

2) Currently there are E85 pumps at a number of stations (although development seems to be stagnating) and most importantly, there is about 10% ethanol (it seems to me) in gasoline in a way general. All this, for the moment, comes from industrial ethanol sectors developed at the initiative of the richest "branches" of our farmers (cereals and beet growers), in direct competition with food production.

I repeat just that in my opinion it is nonsense and deadlock.

3) I deliver my thoughts, but who would I be to criticize those who have a flex-fuel vehicle and go to this pump. I would just wish they thought they were "super green". This is objectively not the case.

4) The ethanol engine will be developed quickly, if it were to be THE solution for the future since it exists in great mass (especially in Brazil, with some adaptations of our good old gasoline engine, they have there even Ladybugs who walk with ethanol, it seems to me, and of course, a lot of our models today ...)

5) In any case, apart from the two of us, it does not interest anyone!