Hydraulic energy: choose a small turbine

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Saint Esteben
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Hydraulic energy: choose a small turbine




by Saint Esteben » 13/03/09, 17:54

Hello, Is there someone among you who could inform me about the choice of a turbine, taking into account the following elements: flow rate: 150 l / s, head height: 4 ?. At the moment, I have a negri turbine, made in the Vosges, around the 1930 years, which is too big for my speed; it consumes 250 l / s, while my speed is only 150 l / s. Thank you for enlightening me on this subject !!
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by Pierre17800 » 13/03/09, 18:42

Hi,
I have a turbine which works from 150 l / s. But at this speed you should know that the yield is lower.
It is a horizontal axis Francis turbine with the multiplier and a generator of 36 KW. (never installed)
What is the type of your turbine and what is the useful diameter of the rotating part?
Kind regards.
Pierre.
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by Remundo » 13/03/09, 21:18

Hello,

In this area, rather a Banki Mitchell (also called Cross Flow).

A small Kaplan with a vertical axis could also do the trick.
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Hydro-electric power




by Saint Esteben » 14/03/09, 06:18

Hello,

I see that there are connoisseurs !! I just asked for a quote for a banki (ossberger), for the rest, I shoot a photo and present it to you on Monday. GOOD WEKEND.
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by Saint Esteben » 16/03/09, 16:35

Pierre17800 wrote:Hi,
I have a turbine which works from 150 l / s. But at this speed you should know that the yield is lower.
It is a horizontal axis Francis turbine with the multiplier and a generator of 36 KW. (never installed)
What is the type of your turbine and what is the useful diameter of the rotating part?
Kind regards.
Pierre.

Hello, this is a negri turbine, vertical axis, useful dimension of the rotating part: 390 mm.
Kind regards.
Jea michel.
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by Pierre17800 » 17/03/09, 12:31

Mine seems to be of the same power as yours: so it's not good. Anyway at 150 l / s the yield is -50%.
Kind regards.
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Re: Hydraulic energy




by Christophe » 17/03/09, 12:37

Saint Esteben wrote:Hello, Is there someone among you who could inform me about the choice of a turbine, taking into account the following elements: flow rate: 150 l / s, head height: 4 ?. At the moment, I have a negri turbine, made in the Vosges, around the 1930 years, which is too big for my speed; it consumes 250 l / s, while my speed is only 150 l / s. Thank you for enlightening me on this subject !!


Free ad: maguysama.com/ELECTRICITE-SUR-VOTRE-RIVIERE_a18.html
ou
calcadis.com/Articles-Calcadis/Pico+.html

The price of the 2ieme is very correct I think! But I don't understand how the 50Hz is regulated (an internal inverter can be?)

Too bad I have 50 cm of fall ...
Last edited by Christophe the 29 / 10 / 09, 17: 42, 1 edited once.
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by -Stephan- » 17/03/09, 19:27

Good morning to Christophe, Pierre 17800, Saint Esteben and Remundo!

My Cri-cri son fell on your forum, and asked me to write there.
The work will be difficult, and I prefer to play cards on the table right away: this is the first time that I have worked on a forum (I therefore do not know the techniques, rules, customs, uses and habits: I am from the generation where cubic roots were still extracted by hand ... therefore computers, the Internet ... hum! hum! I therefore ask for your indulgence, your remarks, even your criticisms or remonstrances ...); and I am the manager of Calcadis, a site linked here by Christophe (I will therefore have to talk about the "pico + family" turbine, without advertising, which, you agree, is not obvious! perfectly the right - even the obligation - to question my objectivity and my sincerity ...).

The pico + family is a frozen machine, without any means of regulation or adaptation: it operates under 1,50 m of fall and takes 35 l / s. Point (machine standardized to the maximum to have a very low production cost). It still works under 1,40 m and still under 1,60 m, but you really should not exceed these values: below, the efficiency and power decrease quickly, and, above, there are risks of overcurrent.
All the regulation systems (voltage, current, frequency) are on an electronic card integrated into the machine (in the upper warhead). The values ​​are adjusted at the factory: it is therefore necessary to know under what conditions the machines will be used. These settings are adaptable (always at the factory) according to the possible evolution of the site (for example: transition from self-consumption to network sales).
The machine is designed to promote maximum safety. Since there is no winnowing system, the alternator will produce its 300W, whatever happens. The electronic card therefore constantly analyzes the state of the network into which production is injected. If the power consumed on the network is less than the 300W, the surplus is sent to a resistor (above the upper warhead). If there is a problem on the network (short circuit, power demand continuously greater than 300W, etc.), the turbine separates from the network, sends its 300W to the resistor, and tries to reconnect, after a few seconds . If the problem persists (after 5 tests over a period of 10 minutes - values ​​installed by default, but configurable at will in the factory), the pico + family will require manual intervention to resume production (we remove the turbine from its chamber water, or we stop the water supply, to stop the rotation and therefore reset the automation, then we put it back, that's all).
The pico + family is also designed to absorb overloads when starting electrical devices: everything is designed to withstand 1000W.
The pico + family can be linked to each other, ad infinitum. Thus, on the Saint Esteben site, we can put 4 machines in parallel (4 x 35 l / s = 140 l / s: sorry, there are 10l / s lost! ...), and we can recover 4 in series, on the fall height (2 x 1,50 m = 3 m: another 1 m lost! ...), i.e. 8 machines in total, which corresponds to an installed power of 8 x 300W = 2,4 kW. The machines regulate each other: if, for example, we consume 1,6 kW, each one will produce 200W, and will send 100W in its resistance.
The electrical connection does not require any special knowledge ("the blue wire on the green button, the red wire on the white button", for fans of the 7th Company ...), and does not require any electrical cabinet: everything is included in the turbine.
For the specific question of the frequency regulation system, the principle is effectively based on an inverter (the permanent magnet alternator is set to 1000t / min, with its own frequency, and this is converted to the setpoint, independently). This frequency can be set very precisely. It will be 50Hz on a turbine installed in an isolated network (60Hz for a pico + family installed in America), and 50,1Hz for a machine coupled on a conventional distribution network (60,1Hz in America). This value, slightly higher than the nominal value of the network, forces the turbine to permanently inject its 300W.
The pico + family is installed without heavy civil engineering (and not econological). In Madagascar, machines are running (from the start of 2006, without incident) with earthen dikes, or in an old metal drum of 210 l (not very economical either ... but, there, it's the D system which prevails!).
The basic principle of the proper functioning of the pico + family is based on a systematic elimination of waste conveyed by water. If cloudy water has no effect on the functioning, it is not the same with the least twigs, leaves, litter, etc. which can greatly deteriorate the propeller, with, in extreme cases, a net stop of the rotation (at 1000t / min, this is not good ...). It is therefore necessary to filter the water fairly finely. In a conventional hydraulic installation, it is considered that the spacing of the bars of the water inlet grids must be at most equal to thirtieth of the diameter of the smallest turbine on the site. A pico + family measures 160mm in diameter, i.e. a recommended spacing of the bars of approximately 5mm. This small spacing requires permanent cleaning of the grids. Static systems exist (operating without any manual intervention or external energy source), which consume a small amount of water and fall height (in the case of Saint Esteben, it would be necessary to take advantage of 10l / s and 1 m lost).
The pico + family is also a very light machine: it must therefore be protected from flooding. It could also easily "take legs": a simple pair of cutting pliers allows to separate it definitively from its site ...

This machine is the first in a range which will gradually be implemented: the 300W model will be extrapolated to 600W and 900W (increase in the height of fall to 3 m) an 3kW machine is in the pipeline, and a much larger one (10 to 35kW, under 1,50 m to 4 m of fall) is under development.

Besides, I more or less saw Christophe's project for a paddle wheel. A good impeller has an output of 20%. I have never seen a good paddle wheel before ... Now, under 50cm of fall, it is indeed the only process currently known likely to produce something. It's a shame, because with only 70cm, there is a process based on vortices that allows a yield of 70% for the same price as a paddle wheel ...

I remain, unpretentious, at your disposal for any further information: soft, renewable and free energies remain one of my favorite passions ...

And I think that the first reproach that will be made to me for this first intervention will remain the length of my speech ...

Stéphan
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by Saint Esteben » 17/03/09, 21:22

Good evening, first of all, it is better to be long and explain things as they are !!! If I had known that my turbine was too big for my flow, I would never have installed it, but nobody informed me, although 20 years ago nobody was interested in the thing. Now, wanting to calculate my stroke, at my age, we can no longer be wrong often, I have studied the problem, and the biggest thing is to find a turbine that fits exactly the configuration of my mill. I found one, 4 meters of fall, 140 l / s, but very expensive. After some research on the internet, I find the same turbine in China, because they all come from there !! Price difference !!! 2850 euros. Of course there is transport, but I asked for a quote to know the cost; In France, we advance the tax credit, but despite this credit less, I am a winner! In other words, in France, we take advantage of the tax credit to overcharge a Chinese product that we find in London 35 for a hundred percent cheaper !! Why the Chinese turbine is better? Quite simply, the turbine rotates at the same speed as the alternator, 1500 towers, which avoids belt transmission which affects the performance of 45 percent, it was told by an EDF engineer. So right now I'm fighting hard to find the supplier who will give me the best price. For those who want to see the turbines, just do it on the search engine: exmork turbines, and you will find the turbine of your dreams !! Good night, and if you know a good French manufacturer, let me know, Thank you. 'advanced.
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by -Stephan- » 18/03/09, 00:58

Good evening Saint Esteben!

Thanks for the indulgence!

I know Chinese turbines well ... Mistrust! ... The last one I saw pass lived 8 months, and never managed to get more than 40% of the power announced, while effectively letting the quantity of water for the power announced ...
I know a French manufacturer, based in Toul, who works quite well. He will know exactly how to adapt the right turbine (I already know that he will offer a Kaplan with simple adjustment of 300mm in diameter - the smallest of its range - rotating at 1133rpm, which will "swallow" a maximum of 340 l / s, which will start, with already a good output, at 100 l / s, and which will exit, at most, 10kW). But, in my opinion, the total investment (turbine + alternator + hydraulic unit + guard valve + water inlet grids + electrical cabinet + civil engineering, and so on) will be towards the end of the values ​​at 5 digits, or even the start of 6 digit values. Especially in € uros, that's a pretty sum!
By any chance, this is THEE (HydroElectrical Techniques), which has just joined the Hydréo group.
THEE is located rue Bois la Ville, ZI Croix de Metz, 54200 Toul (they have a website: http://thee.free.fr)
Hydréo is located in Fallières Saint Nabord, 88200 Remiremont.
There is also the possibility of placing a classified ad to find, used, a small Francis turbine (it looks a bit like a centrifugal pump rotor, and it fits in a "spiral tarpaulin", a sort of big snail) , in a specialized magazine for independent hydropower producers. 4 m of fall, it remains in the great classics, 6 CV too. But beware, unlike Kaplan which are much more flexible, a Francis only starts at 50% of its nominal power, with even less efficiency than the Kaplan at 30%. Basically, if the modulus of the stream is 150 l / s, you should not buy a Francis which takes more than 200 l / s under 4 m!
If a proposed turbine is given for a height different from 4 m, I know the formulas which make it possible to calculate what it can do under 4 m: it will suffice to ask me.
Here are the coordinates of this review: HydroEnergie Revue, Editions de la Vallée, au Vieux Moulin, 54260 Viviers-sur-Chiers (tel: 03 82 89 76 12).

It is true that a "direct drive" alternator is the ideal solution, especially because the forces on the shafts and bearings (or bearings) are removed: everything is online, and there is only the torque. to be transmitted (no effort to be supported to keep the belt tension and transmit the torque tangentially on a single strand). A flat belt multiplier eats only 2% yield. A V-belt multiplier, 3%, or a little more. But in no case 45%, even if it is an EDF engineer who says it!

@ +!
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