Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?

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falcon1208
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Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?




by falcon1208 » 23/11/17, 15:22

Hello,

I found this idea of ​​a Pascal Ha Pham wind turbine on the net. I know he writes
also on this forum but I did not manage to find the subject evoking it.

Something bothers me. I sketched in red a position of the system which seems to me
stable and leaves it immobile while the wind is blowing (pale from the bottom horizontal instead
to be vertical and take the wind).

Sincerely,

Falcon
StateStable.jpg
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Re: Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?




by Grelinette » 24/11/17, 13:46

Hello,

A priori no there is no error ... but actually the drawing seems very complicated (or incomplete) for a clever and very simple mechanism at the base. It is possible that the drawing is intentionally abstruse or incomplete so as not to be copied as is! ...

From what I understand in principle, the blades are fixed on a kind of square with an axis at the angle which pivots on the drive chain (the blades can therefore not be placed horizontally as you drew them), and when the blades are in imbalance downwards, they "fall" vertically by simple gravity and the other arm of the square comes to be wedged against the chain, then the wind keeps them straight and push the assembly until the blades retract by tilting by their simple mass when it passes over again ... CQFD : Cheesy:

That said, with the drive with the chain and the sprockets (bike chain type), there must be a lot of friction forces which must, in my opinion, well compromise the performance of wind energy.

On the other hand, this system seems interesting to me as an "oval paddle wheel" if you are concerned that an oval paddle wheel brings advantages that a round paddle wheel does not!

Note that this system of blades that retract can a priori adapt on a single circular wheel.
We have to see why there is this chain system: maybe this chain mechanism was designed for a specific application? ...
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Re: Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?




by falcon1208 » 24/11/17, 14:31

Grelinette wrote:Hello,

A priori no there is no error ...


I find it difficult to express myself. I don't see any mistakes either
and I think I understand the kinematics of the machine.

I just want to point the finger at the following fact: Nothing seems
prevent a pale woman from getting into the position that I sketched in red.

In this position the system does not start.

Falcon
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Re: Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?




by Grelinette » 25/11/17, 17:48

Hello,
Looking closely, we see a small rectangular cleat that prevents the pale from going horizontal as you drew it.
On the other hand I do not understand the interest that the pale put on the horizontal like that which is completely on the right.
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Re: Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?




by falcon1208 » 25/11/17, 18:28

Grelinette wrote:Hello,
Looking closely, we see a small rectangular cleat that prevents the pale from going horizontal as you drew it.
On the other hand I do not understand the interest that the pale put on the horizontal like that which is completely on the right.


Unless I'm mistaken, this stopper is behind the pale one and prevents it from fading in front of the wind.
It is therefore this stop that makes this pale a pale motive with the wind that is indicated.

But let's stop the wind. Let's take this pale in hand and spin it
around its axis in a counterclockwise direction. Nothing prevents (and therefore not this stop) from bringing it
in the red position.

Let us restore the wind, the wind turbine does not start.

So there seems to be a stable static position of the system
in non-zero wind.

Another stateless wind turbine could be combined with the wind turbine
death. Or prevent the pale from getting into this position
(local reminder, by remote action or contact, up?).
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Re: Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?




by Grelinette » 25/11/17, 19:10

Indeed, if the pale falls below for lack of wind, then picks up the wind, logically it could go horizontal as you drew it.

This remark leads me to think that it is not a wind turbine but rather a paddle wheel, and there is therefore always a hydraulic force which is exerted on the blades in position under the assembly.

That said, I have never seen a project using this mechanism (yet all the systems imagined are sooner or later tested): perhaps the performance is not interesting or there are unacceptable defects in this mechanism.
We would have to make a wooden model to test the idea.
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Re: Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?




by falcon1208 » 25/11/17, 20:30

Grelinette wrote:Indeed, if the pale falls below for lack of wind, then picks up the wind, logically it could go horizontal as you drew it.

This remark leads me to think that it is not a wind turbine but rather a paddle wheel, and there is therefore always a hydraulic force which is exerted on the blades in position under the assembly.

That said, I have never seen a project using this mechanism (yet all the systems imagined are sooner or later tested): perhaps the performance is not interesting or there are unacceptable defects in this mechanism.
We would have to make a wooden model to test the idea.


The most efficient wind turbine imaginable is conceptually simple: A surface S perpendicular to the wind
moves backward facing him. Materially this poses a simple problem: Unless it is guided in translation by a device of infinite length, under a wind with a rectilinear path itself infinite, the system cannot function.

Everyone is therefore looking for a tip to have pale motor which are as often as possible
orthogonal to the wind, and come back against it while fading at best.

Pascal therefore chose NACA profiles to minimize drag when the talk goes upwind.
He also seeks to oppose it as best as possible to the latter when it is motor.
His system is clever!

I put myself in the idea in making a printed plastic version to try but it is this hazard
technique that stopped me.

Does anyone have a solution?
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Re: Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?




by Grelinette » 25/11/17, 20:56

falcon1208 wrote:Pascal therefore chose NACA profiles to minimize drag when the talk goes upwind.
He also seeks to oppose it as best as possible to the latter when it is motor.
His system is clever!

But it seems to me that there are a lot of friction forces which makes this system perhaps less efficient.

falcon1208 wrote:I put myself in the idea in making a printed plastic version to try but it is this hazard
technique that stopped me.

In my opinion it is simpler to recover an old child's bike for scrap or in a resourcery: you cut the frame with the grinder to keep only the necessary tubular parts (the rear fork and the crankset) and you have the 2 sprockets, the chain and the frame for the whole.
bicycle frame.jpg
cadre vélo.jpg (11.94 KB) Consulted 3446 times

By taking simple flat metal brackets, on which you fix the blades and fixed to the chain by a longer link axis
Équerre plate.jpg
Équerre plate.jpg (2.83 KiB) Viewed 3446 times

It seems relatively simple to tinker with a first model to test and improve the mechanism of the blades.
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Re: Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?




by falcon1208 » 25/11/17, 21:18

Grelinette wrote:In my opinion it is simpler to recover an old child's bike for scrap or in a resourcery: you cut the frame with the grinder to keep only the necessary tubular parts (the rear fork and the crankset) and you have the 2 sprockets, the chain and the frame for the whole.
bicycle frame.jpg
By taking simple flat metal brackets, on which you fix the blades and fixed to the chain by a longer link axis
Équerre plate.jpg
It seems relatively simple to tinker with a first model to test and improve the mechanism of the blades.


Yes it is a good idea, thank you. I'll think about it.
But I would like to resolve this question of hazard before I start.
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Re: Wind turbine of P. Ha Pham - Anomaly?




by balandar » 27/11/17, 00:30

Hello
this assembly will require a lot of wind because there is a good mechanical braking and it will not turn fast enough to drive a good generator so it must be put a reduction and that will brake all the more little interest mounting to make a such an achievement which will be expensive for little return
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