Storage of electrical, thermal and H2 energies (CNRS)

[Christophe]

The CNRS has written a summary article on the storage of electrical energy, heat and hydrogen in its latest journal: http://www.cnrs.fr/fr/pdf/jdc/271/index.html

It is a synthesis of the existing existing.

Pdf version: http://www.cnrs.fr/fr/pdf/jdc/JDC271.pdf ou https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... UdeUK0.pdf

See also topics (about thermal storage):
https://www.econologie.com/forums/materiaux- ... 11286.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-d ... 10905.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/stocker-de ... t7421.html

ps: proposed here https://www.econologie.com/forums/post253002.html#253002

[cortejuan]

Hi,

thank you Christophe for the creation of the subject.

Storage is a really important topic in terms of alternative energies. The CNRS number does not go very far, but it is a good summary and shows that the main French research organization is aware of the importance of energy storage in all its forms.

cordially

[chatelot16]

I have not read everything yet but we see the solution on the first page!

how to conserve energy? in tinned boxes!

why did not anyone think of it earlier?

[bidouille23]

bonsoir,

there is also apple insider:

http://www.zdnet.fr/actualites/stockage ... 786256.htm

the wind turbine becomes simpler used suddenly;) .... If have this has a wind turbine depression must give a nice thing ...

No more copper, just magnet trays that turn in front of a metal disk, or recycled aluminum (easy to do, or to recover ...)

I will read also thank you ...

[moinsdewatt]

bonsoir,

there is also apple insider:

http://www.zdnet.fr/actualites/stockage ... 786256.htm

the wind turbine becomes simpler used suddenly;) ...........

But as the reconversion of this heat stored in electricity to a poor performance, the interest is not absolutely obvious.

[bidouille23]

bonsoir,

it's not wrong, but at the same time I tell myself that it is better to lose a little to the re-transformation of heat into electrical energy or direct use in the form of heat (thermodynamic for example), given that the principle of storage in the form of heat is "simpler" to manufacture for everyone than the manufacture of a battery (at the same time using batteries resulting from the breakage is also a solution), but combined with the simplification of construction of a conventional wind turbine with an alternator at the top behind the blade rotor (the vacuum turbine has less mechanical stress due to the light weight, even if its performance is also less good).

In short I am not a specialist just amateur, but I still see an affordable and more durable solution that a so-called conventional wind turbine with storage in electrical form dis also classic ...

And then at least you can easily use all the production without the need to sell it, and this at any time of the day or night ...

This is a logic that is not the best but has potential not?

[Ahmed]

This is a logic that is not the best, but has potential, right?

The strategies implemented in the nature often have a modest return, to see bad, but with a great saving of means and a finality which is not to obtain the maximum but the sufficient one.
This is obviously not a technical judgment applying to the specific subject mentioned above.

[chatelot16]

the wind turbine in depression is original, but a false good idea

the performance of this transmission is less air has 50%: therefore need a propeller of 2 times more surface area, which is on the mat a 2 times greater force so dull 2 times stronger

the alternator is not the most expensive piece of a wind turbine when we see the amount of iron and copper it contains ... alternators that can be bought are often too expensive but it is not impossible to build everything to have a reasonable price

do not fall into the trap of alernator magnet neodymium iron boron always too expensive ... it's not for nothing that inercon continues to make his alternator coil wound ... which proves that we can do good slow alternator in direct contact without neodymium magnet

[bidouille23]

Hello,

What weighs heavily in a wind turbine is precisely the alternator, with equal rotor size of course.
So having a lower yield of 50% is therefore not depending on the situation and wind potential a disadvantage ... better to put two wind turbine than a;) ...

And concerning the alternator my reference would be more STK ALXION 400STK2M which are magnets NDFEB ...

Small wind turbine will start and produce in lower wind so more often than a big one that will ask a higher average wind ...

So twice as many gear is on, you have to do the price calculation to come back to see if it's profitable I think so ...

But the subject here is the storage of energy in thermal form not in electrical form, so if you make electricity and then transform it into heat, and then turn it back into electricity, the losses are not it more important?

Then, they can couple, thermal solar and wind to heat the mass of the blow is one towards the energy mix that has to turn on a manufacture by only one means.

This says I do not say that it is the ideal solution if it exists ...

[chatelot16]

I know the alxion: very good material, but still too expensive ... a slow alternator all well-crafted iron and copper can cost much cheaper

but even at the rate alxion the alternator is not the most expensive piece of the wind turbine: the helix and the mat are already the biggest pieces

when the idea of ​​moving directly from the mechanical energy to the heat, it is the most stupid idea of ​​the century

the heat is difficult to store, is lost at full speed by ever perfect thermal insulation

the efficiency of the transformation heat electricity is limited by carnot

to store the heat easily it should be limited to 100 ° C hot water: it makes a return of carnot shabby

for a better yield it is necessary to store at a high temperature, like molten sodium ... too complicated and never profitable

thermal storage is not stupid when you do not heat by Joule effect but when heated by a heat pump!

Carnot limits the efficiency of a heat engine but also defines the heat pump's cop at the exact opposite figure

so if we use the energy of the wind turbine to heat water with a good heat pump perfect that has a 8 cop at the temperature or it happens, it will put 8 more heat in the water than of energy received by the wind turbine ... and if this heat pump is transformed into a heat engine it will have a yield of 1 / 8 and give back the same energy without loss

this is what I call a truly reversible heat pump, unlike what is sold as a reversible heat pump that is not thermodynamically reversible at all

such a reversible heat pump in motor does not seem to me profitable only for the storage of energy, but will be very interesting if it serves first to its normal function of heat pump or refrigerating machine, and that this quality reversible it allows him as a bonus to store a little energy in a hot water tank: the heat pump is already profitable by its main function, the energy storage costs only the hot water tank

this kind of heat pump will be able to store electrical energy at night rate to provide electricity day

this kind of heat pump could be used for heating in winter and summer instead of no longer used to store any photovoltaic energy during the day to make it night