Passive barge?

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xaviervd
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Registration: 04/01/08, 22:01

Passive barge?




by xaviervd » 05/01/08, 15:13

Hello,

I'm working on a barge conversion project (http://www.ange-gabriel.be), I'm looking for examples of the most ecological boat layouts possible ...

Image

I'll start by looking at the efficiency of insulation, the greenest possible energy production ...

Here are some elements of the specifications:

- Search for an autonomy of 7 days for 12 people on board (water, heating, hot water, electricity)
- No earth connection. All energy needs must be covered on board.
- Diesel tank (shared with the main engine).
- Large zenith surfaces for solar panels (50 m2).
- No gas supply.
- Storage of electricity in a battery park.
- Solid wood parquet.

My plumber-heater offers me a micro-cogeneration solution (production of electricity and heat) with underfloor heating.

I ask myself questions of neophyte:

- Do you have feedback to share in the field?

- Is this the best solution for my scenario? (even if it seems very attractive to me).

- What are the main advantages and disadvantages of this solution?

Thank you for your informed opinions ;-)

Xavier
http://www.habitat-fluvial.net
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Christophe
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by Christophe » 05/01/08, 15:26

Nice project!

I have no experience strictly speaking in eco-friendly boats but here are some tips / "cold" remarks:

1) Uh, I hope your heating engineer doesn't take you for a jerk trying to sell you a new engine?

Indeed: you already have an engine, mounting it in cogeneration should be fairly simple but it may already be the case (sorry I know almost nothing about barge)?

If you are not connected to the terrestrial network, there is no point in doing electric cogeneration! If it is to recharge batteries it is very uneconomical as a solution!

2) You have to be able "simply" to store the heat from the cogeneration when the engine is not running. A few thousand (5 to 6000L with a ladle for 7 days with a delta of 40 ° C) of liter of water should be enough ... to see them "balance" well in the barge.

3) Solid wood and underfloor heating are far from going well together :(

4) I would also add a solar thermal supplement for the summer (8 m²)

5) What is the interest of photovoltaics if you have a cogenerator?

ps: which corner of Belgium are you in?
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xaviervd
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by xaviervd » 05/01/08, 18:05

Thank you Christophe for your answers! I allow myself to ask other questions ...

1) Uh, I hope your heating engineer doesn't take you for a jerk trying to sell you a new engine?

Indeed: you already have an engine, mounting it in cogeneration should be fairly simple but it may already be the case (sorry I know almost nothing about barge)?


In fact, yes, the boat already has a engine, but this engine is not optimal (from what I know), to only produce electricity or heat. Its consumption is enormous ...

In addition, the boat will sail occasionally: around 20 to 30 days a year.

In the fitted out boats that I know, conventionally, a generator is installed, in addition to the engine, to produce electricity and an oil boiler for heating and hot water.

If you are not connected to the terrestrial network, there is no point in doing electric cogeneration! If it is to recharge batteries it is very uneconomical as a solution!


I have the same intuition. Can you explain to me what brings you to this conclusion?

2) You have to be able "simply" to store the heat from the cogeneration when the engine is not running. A few thousand (5 to 6000L with a ladle for 7 days with a delta of 40 ° C) of liter of water should be enough ... to see them "balance" well in the barge.


Ok, thanks for those numbers.

3) Solid wood and underfloor heating are far from going well together :(


Correct, that's what my heating engineer told me. He recommends tiling or equivalent. But for less "rational" reasons, we opted for a solid wood floor. The heating engineer then recommends metal fins under the floor to increase the efficiency of the radiation (which also significantly increases the price ;-)).

4) I would also add a solar thermal supplement for the summer (8 m²)


Ok. How do you get to 8m2?

5) What is the interest of photovoltaics if you have a cogenerator?


I would answer naively: to make the engine run less when the batteries have been recharged by the solar? Isn't that the right reasoning?

ps: which corner of Belgium are you in?


Namur ;-)

Your answers and your questions advance my thinking, thank you ;-)

Xavier
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Other
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by Other » 06/01/08, 04:36

Hello

On marine engines those for fresh water sometimes the engine coolant is pumped directly into the water and passes directly into the engine.
The good system those for sea water the coolant and the antifreeze which passes in a water exchanger which it is to pump in the river,
From the exchanger there is a way to heat a good amount of fluid to heat and even store it
a good amount of hot water at 70c
on GM engines they use an injection of water into the exhaust pipe to reduce noise and keep the duct cold to avoid a high temperature in the engine compartment
before starting the engine, the engine compartment ventilation must be started to avoid an explosion
Certain boats have a 220volt 60hz generator on board, often independent of the main engine, also water-cooled.
Certainly an air-cooled two-cylinder VM
the question is whether the lighting is 12 volts or 24 volts?
remains to be seen if the necessary energy is for the night or long shutdown main engine stopped (the GM 2 stroke is rather noisy and will be forbidden for use on the road, because of pollution) so be careful that for the rest it does not follow fast enough ?

If the whole electrical system is at low voltage there is a way to charge batteries while it is running, this avoids running the engine when stopped under low load, noise is scent.
The boats when it berths there is an outlet for power in the marina.

Andre
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xaviervd
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by xaviervd » 06/01/08, 15:38

Hello André,

Thank you for your answers on this post and on the other ;-)

The good system those for sea water the coolant and the antifreeze which passes in a water exchanger which it is to pump in the river,
From the exchanger there is a way to heat a good amount of fluid to heat and even store it
a good amount of hot water at 70c
on GM engines they use an injection of water into the exhaust pipe to reduce noise and keep the duct cold to avoid a high temperature in the engine compartment


Excellent info. Who can do this kind of editing? A motorist? A heating engineer? Do you know someone who could perform this operation?

before starting the engine, the engine compartment ventilation must be started to avoid an explosion


Exact.

Certain boats have a 220volt 60hz generator on board, often independent of the main engine, also water-cooled.
Certainly an air-cooled two-cylinder VM


Yes, most of the time a generator in a soundproof box.

the question is whether the lighting is 12 volts or 24 volts?


Everything is to be created, so we can choose 12 or 24 volts.
There will also be a second 220 volt circuit.

remains to be seen if the necessary energy is for the night or long shutdown main engine stopped (the GM 2 stroke is rather noisy and will be forbidden for use on the road, because of pollution) so be careful that for the rest it does not follow fast enough ?


Yes, we will sometimes stay several weeks, in winter, without navigation and without shore electrical connection. The use of a group is effectively prohibited at night, for the neighborhood (so much the better ;-))

If the whole electrical system is at low voltage there is a way to charge batteries while it is running, this avoids running the engine when stopped under low load, noise is scent.


Yes, we charge the batteries while it is running. But at a standstill, as you write, you have to produce without using the main engine.

The boats when it berths there is an outlet for power in the marina.


The 38 m barges do not generally have access to the marina for smaller boats (less than 20-25 m) ... And where our official location is located there is no electrical connection to Earth.

André, what is your opinion on the installation of a co-generation solution on a barge with the constraints described above?

Xavier
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xaviervd
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by xaviervd » 05/07/08, 14:29

Just a little post (out of context) to share with you the crazy adventure we are living:

http://www.ange-gabriel.be

:-)

Fluvially,

Xavier
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the middle
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by the middle » 05/07/08, 15:49

Hello,
The only practical experience I have,
it was a friend who had the same project; he sold his barge in disaster because the thickness of the hull metal was limited ...
There is a technical check if I understood correctly.
So this is a very important point to check
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xaviervd
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by xaviervd » 05/07/08, 16:40

Yes, this is an essential point, to be checked (in principle) before buying your boat ... The hull must be more than 3,9 mm everywhere to be able to be approved.

More info here: http://www.habitat-fluvial.net/a-quoi-r ... tat-2.html

Fluvially,

Xavier
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by the middle » 06/07/08, 07:22

Hello,
Here is a marine engine which does not consume much 10cv: volvo penta 10ch diesel
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Chatham
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by Chatham » 06/07/08, 09:14

lejustemilieu wrote:Hello,
Here is a marine engine which does not consume much 10cv


Just for information, to properly propel a 38m barge you need an engine of more than 200hp ... the least powerful engines used on this type of barge was no less than 150hp ... the most powerful 400hp ...
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