Heated floor in old house

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florid
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Heated floor in old house




by florid » 14/01/18, 19:29

Hello, and thank you to those who will take the time to read this long post ... and respond to it.

I am planning to buy an old house in the Hérault. It was renovated 10 years ago and the owner wanted to rent it out. So he had the cement slab redone and tiled everywhere. On top of that, he had toaster-type radiators everywhere. : Twisted: : Twisted:

I want to renovate it in an ecological way, economical and respectful of old buildings. :geek:

We have as project to break the existing slab, down about 50cm, put a drained hedgehog (drain air and water if necessary, we will see depending on what we find below). Then I wanted to do something experimental :?: :?:
That is to say that I thought to make a lime slab quite liquid and very flat, to lay Ytong Multipor cellular concrete (with an 0,04 lambda) on 20cm thick, to place my heating floor coil on top and to recycle over a lime screed and in advance lay a stone pavement.

I think that in terms of compressive strength, the "sipo" should hold, however it cannot bend or otherwise it will break. So I have to be on a very stable and flat base, hence the 10 cm lime slab below, on the hedgehog.

My question is the following:
How to pour a lime screed which needs time to set on "sipo" which risks drinking all the water contained in the screed ?? I read that for lime plasters on "sipo", it was necessary to make a gobetis before which will serve as interface between the plaster body and the support, but it is in vertical, is it- that it will also work horizontally ...

Why did I choose cellular concrete? because the cork is not enough perspiring for my taste, at least in plate and because I want a heating floor which to be effective, must be well insulated from below on a hedgehog in the DRC, after if you have an idea of ​​material with which one reaches a 4 R 20cm, which is breathable, a little bit ecological and resistant in compression ... Now, I hesitate anyway with the cork plate, since I have not found any example on the net of use of siporex in isolation of soil in an old house (except on the case of houses made entirely of siporex, but it is associated with cement concrete)

That's it, I hope you'll be able to help me, without discouraging me please, I'm doing very well alone ...;)

I specify that I am a renewable energy technician and that I will do it alone or with my brother.

Sincerely,
Florian
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lilian07
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Re: Heated floor in old house




by lilian07 » 15/01/18, 11:43

Hello, nice project.
Given the constraints I advocate of pse roof simply instead of sipo system that will be much less ecoligic and efficient. By alleurs even if it is possible to provide an interface film type under slab between the floor heating and the sipo is not really done for that. Finally considering the work (50 cm to discover with destruction of slab and tiling ...) and you can envisage:
1) to put the PC without destroying the soil by providing an extension of 10cm (pse + heating pad + tiling ...)
2) to switch to a heating wall without destroying the floor
3) to see the possibility of achieving a heating ceiling ....

We must think carefully beforehand especially when carrying out such a project.
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florid
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Re: Heated floor in old house




by florid » 15/01/18, 16:26

Hello and thank you for your quick reply.

So yes, the ceiling or the heating wall would be possible, but it turns out that I have humidity which rises by the walls (capillary rise). The terrain is not very wet and 2,50m above the road at the highest (70cm at the lowest). Suddenly I'm sure the problem comes from the fact that the concrete + tiling slab is too waterproof and "forces" the humidity to evaporate through the walls. To remedy this, I have to break the concrete slab and the tiles anyway. Therefore, installing a PCTBT is just one more step in soil repair. This is the reason why I absolutely want to have a "breathable" floor and to avoid all plastic materials in order to clean up the walls. Hence the choice of siporex (multipor delta 0,04) or cork.

It will be a very low temperature solar PC with boiler reading a pellet boiler stove.
Thank you in advance for your advice.

Flo's
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chatelot16
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Re: Heated floor in old house




by chatelot16 » 15/01/18, 19:15

the quality of the underfloor heating does not come from the realization of the heated floor but from the insulation of all the rest of the house

if the house is well insulated a floor heating will be good whatever its realization

if the house is poorly insulated it will increase the temperature of the ground and it will become painful for the occupants

floor very low temperature? it means nothing ! it is not the floor that determines the temperature, it is the need for heating the house ... if the house is well insulated a very low floor temperature is enough to heat it ... if the house is a hotel drafts the floor heating can not be low temperature

the house is currently heated by bread racks ... start by spending a winters by recording the consumption of bread racks
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florid
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Re: Heated floor in old house




by florid » 15/01/18, 20:13

Re,

then the house is as I said a house of at least a century with stone walls of 55cm downstairs and 45 upstairs. I will of course (re) isolate the roofs lost with 40cm of cellulose wadding insufflated and provide a thermal corrector on the interior walls with a hemp thick lime plaster. However it must be the most perfectly airtight (with a blower door test).

So I will have a huge inertia, which is an advantage and a disadvantage, but in the old one must do with the reality of the built. For architectural reasons and taste, It is not possible for me to achieve an external insulation, which I would have liked to privilege. The floor heating will be a very low temperature floor, which means a pitch of 15cm and a temperature of 28 ° C max in the pipes.
As for the toasters, they will be disassembled because heating joule electric effect is what is worse in terms of performance, it costs the skin of the buttocks and all I will do it will heat 1m ² of wall and then get cold in the rest of the room.

My problem is not the realization of the PC, nor its opportunity, but the fact of using cellular concrete "Multipor" of Ytong (sorry to quote the brand, but it is a specific product and I do not know equivalent in other brands), intended to reinforce the insulation of cellular concrete monomurs, as a slab insulator, because it is breathable (allows water vapor to pass), has a delta of 0,004 (like cork) , is incompressible and of course rot-proof. I ask the question because I have not found anything on the net that comes close.

-Is sipo not gorging moisture? (normally the ventilated hedgehog is here for that)
-How to make a lime screed from above (to put my PC pipes and stick my pavement) without the sipo drinking all the water from the screed and that it does not pull correctly?
-I will not do better to put cork plates, although these are much more watertight?

Thank you

PS: I am a heating plumber and electrician but masons I know can only use concrete and think that lime is to make the decor. Go explain that since the Egyptians and until the 20 years everything was made of lime and that it is still there ...

PPS: It's not a purchase project anymore, it's been a reality since tonight.
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chatelot16
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Re: Heated floor in old house




by chatelot16 » 15/01/18, 21:36

in a house with uninsulated wall, the floor has 28 ° will not be enough to heat properly ... it will either be radiator in addition or raise the temperature of the ground higher than that

it is not stupid to combine radiator and floor heating: radiator to make the main power ... floor to reduce the ambient temperature while keeping the same comfort
Last edited by chatelot16 the 15 / 01 / 18, 21: 38, 1 edited once.
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Bardal
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Re: Heated floor in old house




by Bardal » 15/01/18, 21:37

What you want to do is probably less obvious than it seems; but that seems consistent ...

Some personal reflections, with more or less experience:

- the siporex seems to me a bad idea if it is buried; it is very hygrophilous (so it loses its insulating abilities); moreover, it is very brittle and lacks resistance, which does not seem to me relevant in use with soft materials, such as lime ... Incidentally, it is expensive ...

- I integrate the fact that the concrete slab will have to be broken for the reasons that you state; but disbursing 50 cm seems a little excessive, especially since you may find yourself below the level of foundations (shallow for these old walls).

- I think it would be more appropriate to use only old techniques, based on inflexible materials, compatible with lime slabs, very breathable so able to evacuate moisture from the ground.

Based on all that, I would see:

- a hedgehog made of insulating materials of about twenty cm; these materials may be pozzolan granules, or expanded clay beads, or pearlite or expanded mica (vermiculite); you would not reach an 4 R, but almost, and on a beaten ground, there is no need for such a thermal resistance; besides, it would cost you much less than cork, and rather less than siporex ...

- a thick screed (7 cm for example) of hydraulic lime mortar reinforced if possible with either natural or synthetic fibers (polyethylene for example); in fact it depends on the area of ​​your chappe (which you do not say anything about), which should not exceed 40 m2 in one piece. This escape would include the underfloor heating network pipes and would directly receive the tiling. It is not necessary to make a screed in too greasy mortar, the thinnest possible being sufficient; on the other hand, it must be "tightened".

- such a montage should not exceed thirty cm, would remain very perspiring and should be flexible enough to accept the inevitable predictable movements ...

PS, (which does not change anything in the assembly) Rather than a complex and expensive assembly of solar thermal + stove "boiler", you would have every interest in putting an air-water cap, much less expensive and recovering more solar energy. .. But I know you will hardly like it ... yet, in the Hérault, it is the ideal solution ...
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lilian07
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Re: Heated floor in old house




by lilian07 » 15/01/18, 22:17

Before any attempt of realization which seems complex it is necessary to identify where the humidity comes from.
It's by the floors or the walls or any other place. Depending on the case it will be necessary to do with or exclude.
A very low temperature PC is a very good idea. For everything below your slab of lime I will not go on materials like Siporex. In addition, when the soil is wet it is often recommended to seal it with slab film and if you make a hedgehog is an even better idea.
With a floor in TBT it is interesting to use a cap and why not add a simple wood log stove in the living room. The set will be less complex than a boiler stove with solar.
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florid
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Re: Heated floor in old house




by florid » 16/01/18, 16:07

Re,

Good by all, the siporex is a bad idea. So I have the choice of cork or insulating hedgehog. The advantage of the insulating hedgehog indeed is that I have less to disburse, the disadvantage is that with a slab / screed of 7cm plus stone pavement, I will have a huge inertia, and already that this kind of house has huge inertia because of the 50 walls ... It's going to be a struggle to find the right balance. Hence my interest in siporex (excluded) or cork.

On the other hand, the soil moisture problems in the old houses are due to 3 / 4 time to renovations not taking into account the hygrometric reality of the old building. It is important not to waterproof the slab under penalty of blocking moisture and force to go up through the walls. As I explained, that's why I want to make a breathable slab. And then the old ones were like us, they did not like wet houses, so you have to trust them and think they planned the shot (slab lime or more often clay at the time)

With regard to the means of having hot water in the buffer tank, the goal is to do without electricity (nuclear). Hence the solar thermal panels and the boiler stove. In addition they are much more reliable systems than the Pac. I know it myself being an installer. After it is to manage finely the regulation of all with a room thermostat and an outside. To do that I thought I would use the PLUM ECOMAX 850i. ( http://www.plum.pl/index.php/fr/ecomax850i-box ) And then I already have plenty of stuff to do all this.

The slab of the house is 50m2 but it is divided into 3 parts by walls of rests. She makes 12,50m long on 4,00m interior wall ... With no right angles : Cheesy: : Cheesy: I was thinking of making an expansion joint at the kitchen door. (see attached file)

Voili voilou, what do you think?
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florid
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Re: Heated floor in old house




by florid » 16/01/18, 16:16

I forgot that I wanted to heat the bottom with the heated floor, there will be a Pac air to the floor (which I already have and that I will install) after, the heat rises and the chimney pass stack in the middle of the house, I will take the opportunity to recover the calories of it with a simple hatch down in the dining room and one in the hallway of the top, since I will have the tub from top to bottom .
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