Start a vegetable garden on an embankment

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
plonparamoto
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Start a vegetable garden on an embankment




by plonparamoto » 20/04/17, 17:43

Hello,
as part of the creation of a shared kitchen garden on communal land (see saclaycomestible.com), we started to install 3 m cultivation beds on 2m on land that is not old meadows unfortunately. It is a lawn on fairly clayey earth enriched with construction waste (tar, pebbles, pieces of glass sometimes). We cut clods, dug on 20 cm below, to finally spread compost, put the grass clippings under, recompost, earth, recompost, land, then decomposed BRF, then thin layer of turf mowing to protect the earth from the heat of the Sun. We are not lazy at Saclay ;-)
I do not know what it will give when we go to plant after the ice saints, we'll see.
I am thinking of suggesting that the town hall try your hay technique, we will see if they accept because it is a "green space", and for walkers it must be green. Nevertheless when I worked on the boards, the walkers stop and we discuss, it is the principle, they will perhaps participate and, miracle, they will perhaps make a vegetable patch in their garden.
I saw your messages explaining that the bottom line is that the soil is covered, even if they are weeds. Can we only plant punctually in a hole made with a corer, let the weeds around? Protect a little the plant of the competition by a layer of BRF around, or hay or other? The soil is clayey and compact, but if the weeds arrive there, why not the vegetables? Or do we really have to bring back other land (amended compost, 15 euros HT per ton) and cover, or put this new earth in ground squares (kind 120 cm by 120 cm, 40 cm high)?
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olivier75
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Re: start a vegetable garden on a platform




by olivier75 » 20/04/17, 18:51

Hello,
The ideal would be a blanket of hay homogeneous, the green will come with vegetables, I will not advise leaving the weeds in a public place, their management is delicate and not necessarily aesthetic. I will also advise only transplanting seedlings or large seed into pits, beans, peas, beans and staying in easy vegetables.
The earth as you have prepared must work, with its hay cover.
Do not separate the planks from the lawn, which will also facilitate edge care directly to the mower.

Olivier.
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Did67
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Re: Start a vegetable garden on a platform




by Did67 » 22/04/17, 08:17

I would say :

a) it's done (the big job), so we're not going to come back ... I think you could do without it. In any case try to get by !!!

b) therefore the request to the mayor could concern new spaces, according to the craze

c) But if it is really a platform (I suppose between roads), then you must know that these lands are still very polluted by the presence of lead, long ago in our fuels; years after the ban, he's still here! The first thing to ask, it would be an analysis of the content of this heavy metal!

d) Grass clippings have two major disadvantages:

- be careful, they ferment easily, and can then kill the vegetables; therefore always use them in thin layers ("sprinkling"), avoiding contact with the vegetables, after having dried them; if possible in combination with a material low in nitrogen (straw, wood chips, hemp fibers ...).

- they do not last long because they break down quickly; so very quickly, it may turn out to fallow, with weeds better fed, who enjoy this fertility! Beware of the disappointment effect !!!

For me, this is a very bad "ground cover". As it is there, it must be recycled. But with attention ..

e) Yes, you can grow certain "tall and powerful" vegetables directly in the grass, by surrounding them with crowns of hay (or a mixture of grass - wood chips): tomatoes, eggplants, cabbages, row beans (even dwarf) ... I have done this many times.

f) The first year, whatever you do, you will have perennials that will break through, because they there before in the grass, less powerful (in competition with grasses, well fed months). So you have to pull up the dandelions, plantains, quackgrass if there is any, or even bindweed and a few others ... This is normal. At the beginning, you will "break" at the level of the neck and the roots, reserve organs, will remain in place. Hence new rejections. But quite quickly, after 6 months, and especially the second year, the soil "will become loose by itself" (what is called "aggradation", under the action of living organisms in the soil if they are well nourished and not disturbed by tillage) and pulling in jerks, the roots will come too - and there it will be definitely solved! Without reserve organs, the perennials are cooked !!!

We must pass this first phase, a bit ungrateful ... And after, it will be ... surprising!
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plonparamoto
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Re: Start a vegetable garden on a platform




by plonparamoto » 09/07/17, 15:32

Hello,
the 4 plots of 3m on 2m on the public space (shared kitchen garden) of my commune are doing well, no voluntary degradation, curious neighbors and watchful, some (few) who participate in watering. Salads, spinach and radish are harvested, distributed, other seeds or plants replace them, other crops grow: tomatoes, squash, potatoes (accidental-peel compost), green beans, carrots, tetragon. But watering is a chore, distant water points. I do not dare to skip watering by relying on the water reserves of the soil and mushrooms, because our vegetables immediately take a dirty head. The soil around the plots is too young, compact, covering site waste. If we want to expand our crops, you advise to cover a wide area or 1 m wide and all in length, to avoid having to walk on the crop and tamp the soil? A friend tells me that straw is enough for a blanket, it can be easily, hay will be less easy.
please
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olivier75
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Re: Start a vegetable garden on a platform




by olivier75 » 09/07/17, 15:40

Hello,
Thank you news.
Straw "suffices" for mulching and reducing watering, hay provides better anti-weed cover, keeps humidity better, and feeds the soil more and better for the future. The compact hay cover also absorbs a lot of rain but if you are already watering you will still benefit.
Mix clippings with straw approaches it.
Olivier.
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Did67
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Re: Start a vegetable garden on a platform




by Did67 » 09/07/17, 16:36

To substantiate a bit: a "blanket" can play at least 6 roles. Alas, only one or two are usually taken into account when talking about mulch. We then deprive ourselves of the essential positive effects.

1) Sufficient coverage controls weeds, prevents them from germinating and / or "stifles" them (in fact, deprives them of light and therefore of energy). This can be the function of a thick layer of hay, straw, bark, sawdust, cocoa hulls and many other commercial "mulches" (a nice word to sell - often expensive - waste whose you have to get rid of it). But it can also be a simple black plastic sheet.

2) It limits the evaporation of water and therefore preserves water reserves. There, the tarpaulin is not suitable, because it does not allow the rains to pass through. You need a woven fabric, which allows water to pass through. Organic blankets "absorb" some of the rain, especially if you put them dry.

3) It protects the soil against the aggressions of the climate: wind (which dries), shocks of raindrops, which creates crusts.

All covers do it more or less.

4) It can nourish living organisms in the soil, again if it is rich and balanced. The living organisms of the soil, well nourished, will "aggravate" the soil, that is to say improve it, structure it, loosen it in a sustainable way, all alone without having anything to do with it. make.

Here again, the rich materials, which feed the organisms well, are more effective than poor and unbalanced materials, which do not feed them, or poorly, or that a few families of organisms (eg, mushrooms).

This phenomenon is little known. It is nevertheless essential: it is these organisms which "create" the soil and build its fertility. And not the other way around.

There, the hay is very effective, the straw is little and the other organic substances, much too "slow", too unbalanced to have a noticeable rapid action ...

Of course, the tarpaulins are "out" at this level.

5) It can nourish the plants, following the "mineralization" = the decomposition of organic matter by living organisms in the soil. This is only true for biomasses, and in particular, “rich”, “balanced” biomasses.

Sawdust and bark are very poor materials, which will have a "depressive effect". The straw is quite poor.

Grass clippings are very high in nitrogen and ferment. Hence the fact of mixing them with poor straw-type materials to make a "medium mixture".

Here too, the tarpaulins are "out".

6) It can contribute to the formation of humic substances, which improve the soil in the long term, under the influence mainly of fungi, provided that the starting organic materials are rich in cellulose and / or lignin (the humic substances do not can be formed only from this type of materials).

This action is stronger for ligneous substances (sawdust, BRF ...), it is noticeable for cellulosic substances (straws, hay) and negligible for fermentable substances (grass clippings).

There you have it, that allows you to understand why, without being false, to say that the straw "is enough" is very reducing and misses the essential: life in the soil. This does not allow to have all the beneficial effects that a cover can have for a crop, in particular fertilization! But I admit, it's so ingrained in habits that few people bother to think globally.
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plonparamoto
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Re: Start a vegetable garden on a platform




by plonparamoto » 10/07/17, 17:21

Hello and thank you for your answers.
It's raining water here, so much the better for the soil that is resurfacing.
The Town Hall graciously provides for our project wood chips, compost (from the local platform), and I can collect grass clippings (mine and that of neighbors who do not treat). Do you advise mixing the three equally or just chips and sod? So far my tests are limited to chips on 5 cm, sometimes covered with lawn mowing in thin layer (1 cm), on a land initially worked (compost lasagna and clay soil cleared of construction waste). To extend the cultivated area, I do not want to restart the work of Roman plots of 2m on 3m, disbursed on 20 to 30 cm deep. I rather plan to cover the initial soil (compact, lawn and weeds-the town hall does not treat, it shuts that's all, all the better) from a mulch, in the form of flower beds of 80 cm to 1 m wide, spaced 80 cm to pass with a wheelbarrow. These flowerbeds would be curved to follow the contours to retain precipitation on the spot (the terrain is curved), and long 5, 10, 15 or 20m. What do you think ?
If we find hay, of course it will be mulching.
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Did67
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Re: Start a vegetable garden on a platform




by Did67 » 10/07/17, 22:24

Excellent!

If I don't recommend composting when you have your own vegetable garden. This remains a way to reduce organic waste and transport, and to recover them. It is therefore a very good contribution, simply already very decomposed, it does not nourish living organisms enough. This is the downside. The advantage is that since it is already decomposed, it fertilizes more quickly, especially at the end of winter, when the soil is still cold and the soil organisms still "numb". It is therefore a "booster" at that time.

Ideally, but this can lead to rejection, it would be to spread the waste before composting, to cover it with wood chips. How clean. And it feeds the living organisms in the soil. In particular as soon as the ground temperature has risen. The lack of "biomass", which is their food, is then the factor that limits their development. And the work of natural soil degradation, which avoids any work.

To compensate for the "poverty" of these shavings (which are not always "real" BRF - it would be necessary to use only hardwood twigs, chopped after the leaves have fallen), grass clippings, in small doses , but repeated (beware of fermentations - if it gets hot!) are useful. Simply, they must be used with tact.

This "system" saves you the tedious work of the soil in the form of mounds or lasagna. What is more is harmful to soil organisms. I am glad you saw it for yourselves. Unfortunately, the "fads" propagated by the internet are not always relevant and sometimes lack terribly "common sense".

I would make the strips a bit wider, because you will see it, the "edges" are nibbled (clovers, etc ... always invade the edges): with 1,5 m, you can work without stepping on them too much, by both sides ... Plan to have to mow the aisles and therefore align the width of the aisles with the width of the mowers used.

The contours are perfect, even if a priori, very quickly, there should no longer be water flow. Without pesticide, there should be anecdic earthworms (those that make casts, you can check in early fall, their activity should start again - they are currently stuck because of drought and heat). In any case, it's pretty ...
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