Ferrocene in gas oil and engine oil analyzes

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Christ
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Ferrocene in gas oil and engine oil analyzes




by Christ » 15/06/09, 10:45

Hello,

We are a public transport establishment (600 buses)

We have read, through all the posts posted, the origin and effects of ferrocene (in capsules in particular)

Our attention was drawn to the latest oil analyzes that we have done regularly on each of our vehicles (40.000 km on average)

The laboratory indicates a high proportion of iron (150 to 200 ppm) in our waste oils, also mentioning a possible contribution of satacen-type ferrocene.

We have two types of vehicles:
Those with particle filters (the most recent) and Ad-blue injection
Those belonging to the oldest park, without any special equipment.

We have observed for some time that ALL of our vehicles have an abnormal level of iron in the drain oil. We ask ourselves :

If ferrocene is present in our diesel (weekly consumption: 220.000 liters), what should its limit value be?
If it is true that engine wear has been observed, what are the most vulnerable engine components?
Why inject Ad-blue in a vehicle already equipped with a particle filter?

A first element of response (s) would be welcome!

cordially

Christ
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by Christophe » 15/06/09, 10:51

Uh, I don't understand: are you using these ***** capsules or another additive or are you using "pure" GO?

Could you scan one of these analyzes for us?

AdBlue has almost nothing to do with FAP (soot) since it concerns the reduction (by chemical reduction) of NOx.
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Christ
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by Christ » 15/06/09, 11:02

Christophe wrote:Uh, I don't understand: are you using these ***** capsules or another additive or are you using "pure" GO?

Could you scan one of these analyzes for us?

AdBlue has almost nothing to do with FAP (soot) since it concerns the reduction (by chemical reduction) of NOx.


Thank you for the answer............

Clearly, we supply diesel for our buses at an oil tanker (Public Procurement)

We put the product directly on our buses.

Our buses are "old" GX 113, Citaro, Cito .... "so without anything other than a simple exhaust
They are "new" (one year) GX 127 & 327, and are fitted with FAP ... AND an Ad-blue injector at the exhaust outlet.

We have recently noticed an abnormal rise in iron particles in our oil changes, all buses combined.

We ask ourselves legitimate questions, asking ourselves in addition, if this phenomenon cannot come from another factor (sulfur?)
We have the drain oil sheet
We will have a diesel analysis performed according to the formulation of CSR 402
On the other hand, the fact of knowing whether or not our gas oil contains ferrocene cannot be detected by a laboratory ....

What then

cordially

Christ

PS I have the document scanned
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by Christophe » 15/06/09, 11:06

Ok and thanks for the scan!

By cons pkoi talk about ferrocene if analyzes do not detect? Is this the point I don't understand?

Have you changed the drain oil recently?
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Christ
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by Christ » 15/06/09, 11:29

Christophe wrote:Ok and thanks for the scan!

By cons pkoi talk about ferrocene if analyzes do not detect? Is this the point I don't understand?

Have you changed the drain oil recently?


Thank you..........

The analysis SUSPECTS ... a presence of ferrocene in the original gas oil ..... which "would" be at the origin of this increasingly important presence of "ferrous" traces in the oil.

The laboratory that we contacted for the analysis of diesel (SGS Lavéra / Marseille) tells us that, given the very small amount of additive that the tanker comes to put in diesel (2 g per 100 liters) it was physically CANNOT detect it chemically in a 5-10 liter sample.

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... ICH0dx.pdf

Damned! ..... where can it come from?

cordially

Christ
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by Christophe » 15/06/09, 11:43

Great and thank you for the pdf, but not being an oil analysis specialist, I admit that I am drying a little there ... Maloche who spent a lot of time on the mpg caps (pure ferrocene) will have probably a more relevant opinion ...

Concerning the 3 columns of the .pdf: they are that of the same vehicle I suppose for 3 samples? Or?

If yes pkoi column 3 is worse than 1? The iron content is higher in the 1st? And the sulfur was almost divided by 2 between the 1 and 3 ... which seems to me a good thing. How many km has the engine (s) analyzed?

Now I understand where the term "ferocene" comes from: we even have a brand: SATACEN (hey Maloche, hop hop hop to work !! : Cheesy: ). I thought it was forbidden? Kristus, if you have courage, you can take a look at this: MPG Caps tests and analyzes which are ferocene.

By cons I have trouble understanding the oil used: 5W 30, 30 seems to me a weak index for a vehicle which drives in city, subjected to strong acceleration and variation of mode and especially in a Mediterranean climate ...

In other words: I think an index 40 (see 50) would better protect the engine.

What is the drain interval (km) of your buses?
Divided by 2, which is a good thing, right?
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by Christ » 15/06/09, 12:28

Christophe wrote:Great and thank you for the pdf, but not being an oil analysis specialist, I admit that I am drying a little there ... Maloche who spent a lot of time on the mpg caps (pure ferrocene) will have probably a more relevant opinion ...

Concerning the 3 columns of the .pdf: they are that of the same vehicle I suppose for 3 samples? Or?

If yes pkoi column 3 is worse than 1? The iron content is higher in the 1st? And the sulfur was almost divided by 2 between the 1 and 3 ... which seems to me a good thing. How many km has the engine (s) analyzed?

Now I understand where the term "ferocene" comes from: we even have a brand: SATACEN (hey Maloche, hop hop hop to work !! : Cheesy: ). I thought it was forbidden? Kristus, if you have courage, you can take a look at this: MPG Caps tests and analyzes which are ferocene.

By cons I have trouble understanding the oil used: 5W 30, 30 seems to me a weak index for a vehicle which drives in city, subjected to strong acceleration and variation of mode and especially in a Mediterranean climate ...

In other words: I think an index 40 (see 50) would better protect the engine.

What is the drain interval (km) of your buses?
Divided by 2, which is a good thing, right?


Thank you..........

The "average" periodicity is 40.000 km, or about a year.

The 3 columns are read from left to right .... the last analysis on the right, pushing to the left the third from before.

For oils, it is the manufacturer (Renault) which gives the indication of periodic emptying, as well as the nature (xxWxx)

For our part, the presence of "iron" can only have four possibilities:

Rusty storage tanks. Impossible. They were cleaned less than a year ago without any particular problem (our storage capacity is 360.000 liters, and a single tank had small rust spots at the bottom, due to untimely water intrusion)

Component of diesel "out of standard" ... having the effect of abnormally wearing out the engines

Presence of ferrocene (more than likely) in quantity to be determined

Soiled carrier tank (s)

The new question we are asking is now whether the oil is well suited to our needs ....

Stay tuned ...

cordially

Christ
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by Christophe » 15/06/09, 13:04

So it's not the same engine? (the sampling dates are not distant from 1 year).

But pkoi column 1 is noted "1" on the Danger scale while 3 is noted "3" when there is less iron? If it's the Iron that seems to worry you?

For the 30 index, frankly I think Renault should recommend 40 for city buses in the south ... at least in summer!

On my VFR the technical manual says to put 20W50 in summer! : Cheesy:

Finally their job is still selling engines ... not oil ... : Mrgreen:

ps: hypothesis and if it was one of your drivers or technician who sold mpg caps internally? : Shock:
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by Capt_Maloche » 15/06/09, 22:04

Hello, :D

Is it possible to have the previous analyzes?


Because after running in, the level of iron present should stabilize

There are indeed 2 possibilities for iron in oil concentrations like the one presented

it can be regular wear linked to a design defect and which will lead to premature wear (keep the analyzes for the guarantee), or can be a badly machined part which will eventually align

or indeed this iron comes from the fuel itself, which could be the case since the phenomenon is increasing on all buses

possibly poor quality oil or faulty analysis : Cheesy: , nothing should be overlooked

HEULIEZ GX 127
Image

Based on the information we have:

1) error due to analysis material (easy to check)
2) Poor quality of the oil (if all the buses are maintained in the same depot or supplied by the same supplier)
3) Supply by the fuel itself


we do not know much about the additives mixed in the fuel, the best would be to ask the question to the refinery which supplies your deposit
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by elephant » 15/06/09, 23:03

Kristus said:

given the very small amount of additive that the oil tanker puts in diesel (2 g per 100 liters) it was physically IMPOSSIBLE to detect it chemically in a sample of 5 to 10 liters.


Given the importance of the issue and the size of your organization, I think you would do well to contact a laboratory that has a mass spectrograph. I think there is at least one in each university, right?
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