Pantone rod replaced by a heated tube?

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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binbins4
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Pantone rod replaced by a heated tube?




by binbins4 » 15/01/07, 22:32

has anyone tried to do this editing?
exhaust gases passing through the tube

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by Christophe » 15/01/07, 23:37

No space in filenames please ... otherwise no I have never tried ... André has done dozens of tests I think this one has also been done (or something that looks like) .. .
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by Other » 16/01/07, 00:17

Hello binbins4
If the guy has taken the trouble to make such a neat construction in stainless steel it is because he believes in something. Do you have any results if it is positive? in 100% the hollow rod there is a certain shape to respect but in water doping I do not know.

No I have not tested passing the exhaust gases through the center of the rod.
a tubular rod yes even filling of insulated tubes.

What works is a simple tube in which we pass the entry of the panton through the center and back through the outside, see drawing, very simple to install a single hole in the exhaust to be welded, it takes a bend vertical (like the mercedes300TD).
What I learned from these experiences is that the tube must have a certain thickness (the thin poor efficiency) and that the end of the reactor must be slightly larger in diameter for expansion at the end of the rod (tube in this case) never tested with water doping.
I am far from being convinced that we should give heat to the rod, I would rather wear to do the opposite, the heat on the reactor body and the rod rather cold, but it becomes hot in a localized way if it was not its thermal conductivity, and that remains something to understand, that a long rod which settles out of the reactor becomes cold (cooler than the ambient air) despite being blue in the reactor, despite metal conductivity? I don't have to try to understand precisely, too many hypotheses and inconsistencies, so I avoid talking about it if I can't understand.
We must stop considering the reactor as a heat exchanger yes it needs heat to work but during its exchange it undergoes heat and cooling.
For a long time I believed that the yield was directly related to the highest outlet temperature and it is false, the outlet temperature in water doping is only a benchmark to know if the rod is wet.
The output is directly linked to the exhaust temperature differential on the inlet and outlet of the reactor, I think when the exhaust outlet will be cold we will have reached the maximum of
this process .. in other words almost as much energy as the engine gives since we consider 30% of exhaust losses and 30% at the end of the engine shaft, but it is impossible to pump all the exhaust heat ..

Just make the bottom longer and you have the integrated bubbler just maintain a level of water in the bottom.
I have a similar principle on the Mecedes not for the rod, but I call it dry bubbler it is halfway of the GV. that’s why I feed it with a small carburetor that saves me a water level control, it evaporates in the process and as the venturi place in front of the turbo therefore demands engine power, at least in a good RPM range.
Andre
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by abyssin3 » 17/01/07, 11:40

The fact of passing the exhaust gases reminds me a little of the first diagram that Naudin had made in 100% Pantone.
Now, as André says, it's not just a heat exchanger, so we can imagine that it won't do everything. That said, when we see what they did there: http://perso.orange.fr/systemeGplus/gv.htm
and especially the perf that they have knowing that they made the assembly in copper, it's pretty correct. And we can well wonder if this one does not work which on a principle of heat exchanger. Finally I think about that because it seemed to me that I heard that people who tried a reactor with a copper rod did not have good results. This would mean that the nature of the metal intervenes in this additional phenomenon and that it does not exist in this assembly.

Suddenly we can say that with a stainless steel assembly, where the "mystery" phenomenon could be added, it would only be better. Or too hot and identical.

On the other hand in terms of heat exchanger, this system shows two additional advantages compared to the rod:
1- larger exchange area (2x)
2- Steam is easier, so the quantity depends on the engine load, as they write it.
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by Other » 17/01/07, 16:16

Hello,
What you are describing is Michel's GV and it is normal for it to be made of copper. Its role is to collect heat as quickly as possible and make steam, then this steam and mixed with air (relatively cold) which causes a certain saturation and it enters the reactor which is not made of copper.
When the copper rod the test that I did is only in 100% panton, on a doping with water I ignore it if it is functional.
It may not be the nature of the metal as its thermal conductivity, to examine the colors of a steel rod we see that the temperature varies over the length of the iron rod and that a stainless steel rod conducts even less heat is also (slightly) more efficient.
The question we must ask is that we know that the reactor tube becomes very hot 500c to 600c that the rod around 3/4 becomes blue and yet all that has passed in the reactor only comes out around 100c to 120c so at a constant temperature the temperature had to be much warmer the rod did not turn blue by radiation, but by contact with the fluid which had to pass over it.
so there has to be a temperature inversion somewhere.
It goes from cold to very hot and it goes down quickly then .. (it's just observations and I have no explanation for these things)
Andre
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by binbins4 » 18/01/07, 21:22

Hello binbins4
If the guy has taken the trouble to make such a neat construction in stainless steel it is because he believes in something. Do you have any results if it is positive? in 100% the hollow rod there is a certain shape to respect but in water doping I do not know.


and no I did not try! if it is neat it is because my job is in the scrap metal (locksmith) my great misfortune is that I have 2 turbo vehicle with intercolate and rear exhaust exits I I find myself with 3à4m of hose connection followed by the good results of camel merco and 205 the distance is very short between the reactor and the admission
if someone lives near me with a td atmo it manifests
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by binbins4 » 18/01/07, 22:56

binbins4 wrote:
Hello binbins4
If the guy has taken the trouble to make such a neat construction in stainless steel it is because he believes in something. Do you have any results if it is positive? in 100% the hollow rod there is a certain shape to respect but in water doping I do not know.


and no I did not try! if it is neat it is that my job is in the scrap metal (locksmith) my great misfortune is that I have 2 turbo vehicles with intercolate and rear exhaust exits I I find myself with 3à4m of hose according to the good results of camel merco and 205 the distance is very short between the reactor and the admission
if someone lives near me with a diesel atmo it manifests
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by abyssin3 » 18/01/07, 23:53

Andre wrote:What you are describing is Michel's GV and it is normal for it to be made of copper. Its role is to collect heat as quickly as possible and make steam, then this steam and mixed with air (relatively cold) which causes a certain saturation and it enters the reactor which is not made of copper.


Indeed, there was a subtlety that I had missed ...ImageIt is therefore rather difficult to draw conclusions from this observation.
What it also reminded me of was the bingofuel
But here too, after looking at it more closely, it is completely different because it is a 100% pantone on the one hand, and on the other hand the pantone gas passes inside, while in our case would be outside. Finally it is even difficult to make an analogy between the two, it is more of a "hollow reactor" in fact.
One solution could be to make a reactor that generates steam at the same time, by evaporating the water inside by the constant level. A bit like André's diagram, but horizontal.
Or pass the water over the outside (between the two tubes) so that the quantity of steam depends on the engine load. Then pass the steam inside by adding a full rod.
Finally to say it always seems simple ...Image
But that loses the advantage of having the hot gases passing inside.
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by Woodcutter » 19/01/07, 02:10

Christophe wrote:No space in filenames please ... [...]
Low dash to replace the typographic space ....
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