Pantone reactor, personal reflections

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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nlc
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Pantone reactor, personal reflections




by nlc » 10/11/05, 15:46

Hello everyone ! :D :D

Well, I discovered the pantone system through a friend. For 3 days I have not been sleeping and I cogitate the system so that I can adapt it to my vehicle!

But before doing anything, I try to analyze the operation as finely as possible to be able to optimize it and be sure it works the first time.

Here are my personal thoughts, which I took care to note as the ideas came to me:

Reflections on the bubbler:
---------------------------

- It is necessary to ensure that during movements, splashes cannot be sucked up by the reactor. It is therefore necessary to protect the outlet to the reactor so that the moist air can pass, but not the drops of water.

- The bubbler must produce humid air, not water vapor. I think that if the bubbler produces water vapor, there is too much water in the air for the reactor to do its job. In addition, if there is too much water, the reactor will cool and could stall.

- For the bubbler to work better, the water must be heated. In fact, in hot water, the molecules are activated and evaporation takes place better. It is known that hot water evaporates faster than cold water. On the other hand, it is not necessary that the water is boiling, otherwise it is squarely steam coming out of the bubbler. What would be good, it would be to regulate the water of the bubbler at a certain temperature, 90 ° C for example.

- There is a good chance that the bubbler will work better if the aspirated air is preheated

Reflections on the reactor:
----------------------------

- I do not think that the diameter of the rod is very important. What is important is probably the distance between the rod and its container, which seems to be between 0.5 and 1.5mm. I think that it is necessary to dimension the diameter of the rod and its container according to the air flow which one wants to pass there. The larger the displacement, the greater the quantity of air sucked in by the intake, therefore the more humid air must be passed through the reactor, if we want to keep the same proportion of normal air / pantonized humid air.

- It is imperative that the inlet and outlet tubes of the reactor are larger than the surface between the rod and its container. I think that the inside diameter of the inlet and outlet tubes must be the same as the inside diameter of the reactor. In this way, there will be a good depression around the rod and a good acceleration of the air.

- The reactor must be as hot as possible, so I think it should be put as close as possible to the engine outlet. I think it would also be nice to thermally isolate the reactor from the exhaust pipe, so that the pot + the cylinder head does not absorb the heat from the reactor. Because I imagine that the exhaust gases are much hotter than the pot itself. So if we are well insulated, the reactor temperature will be higher than if we are poorly insulated.

- I think that to be effective, the reactor should not suck in air that is too loaded with water, such as steam for example. I really think you should suck in humid air, not steam. So you have to design the bubbler.

- I think that if it is necessary that the exhaust gases circulate in the opposite direction of the air of the reactor, it is more for reasons of temperature of the air at the outlet of the reactor than of magnetism or I do not know what other reason. In fact, the outlet of the reactor will theoretically be hotter than the inlet, since the exhaust gases will cool as it advances. Suddenly, we can say that the air sucked by the reactor will be heated "gently".
Theoretical examples:
If the inlet of the reactor is at 700 ° C, and the outlet at 800 ° C (circulation in the reactor opposite to the exhaust gases):
The air which arrives in the reactor will heat gradually and has a chance of reaching a temperature close to 800 ° C.
Now if it is the inlet of the reactor which is at 800 ° C and the outlet at 700 ° C (circulation in the same direction):
The incoming air will suddenly meet 800 ° C, but will not be able to reach it instantly!
And as then the reactor temperature decreases, we should not be able to approach as close to 800 ° C as for the first case.

- Compared to the previous point, it is therefore possible that the longer the reactor and the rod, the better it works:
Since we will gradually heat the air all along the route, then it is long, the more we will approach the temperature of the reactor outlet. In addition, if the friction of the molecules on the walls causes an electrification, and that this electrification has something to do with the pantone process, I think that the longer it rubs, the better !?

- Maybe it would be necessary to leave a certain distance between the outlet of the reactor and the admission, so that the pantonized humid air cools a little and becomes denser?

-----------

My theory on how the pantone principle works:

The air which enters the reactor is charged with moisture, that is to say that there are micro droplets of water suspended in the air.
When passing around the rod, all the air is raised to high temperature (without the rod, the air in the center of the reactor would not heat as much as the air which rubs against the edges).
I think that raising the air to a high temperature breaks the microdroplets of water into smaller particles, maybe squarely into water molecules. Maybe if there is electrification because of friction it helps even more to break the microdroplets.
I think at this stage, the water molecules are not yet cracked.
Then this air mixes with the ambient air and enters the cylinder. I think that it is at the time of the explosion of the fuel, when the temperature rises very high, that the water cracks and turns into hydrogen + oxygen, and then participates in amplifying the combustion, therefore gaining power and above all allow more complete combustion (therefore less pollution).

--------

Small reflection on the bubbler:

I think that the maximum possible optimizations will be done on the bubbler, and on the way to bring the output of the reactor to the engine intake.
Because the aim of the game would be for the engine to swallow the maximum amount of air coming from the reactor ...

For the bubbler, and the current assembly, there's something that bothers me. Here is a very simplified diagram:

Image

It will take a certain suction force to be able to suck air in this type of bubbler, because to suck air it is necessary to create a sufficient depression so that the water level in the air intake goes down to 'below, so that an air bubble can enter.
This is why on some sites, they recommend closing the original air intake, to have sufficient suction in the bubbler and cause bubbling.

My idea would be as follows: It is not up to the engine to suck in air from the bubbler, but it is up to us to provide it with this air!
Like that, we could even provide him with more air than he needs, just to be sure that he is stuffed to the max!
Because I am sure with this current bubbler system, an idling engine does not draw enough air through the intake to cause sufficient depression and correct bubbling. And for journeys in town, we are often idling, when we wait at red lights or in traffic, so even at idle the engine should be supplied with panton air.

For this, my idea is to insert an air pump between the reactor and the air filter. It is it which would draw air into the bubbler through the reactor, and supply this air to the engine.
We could then electrically choose the air flow rate that we want to send to the engine. And with a pump, it's more the engine that sucks this air, it's us who supply it.
The assembly would be even simpler, it would suffice to connect the outlet of the pump almost anywhere after the air filter, without one having to wonder if one sucks enough in the bubbler.
With this system there would be no need to shut off the original air inlet.

The big advantage of the pump is that for each vehicle we could calibrate the minimum flow for idling, and the maximum flow. Then simply rotate the pump more or less quickly to adjust the flow.

In addition, when the water is cold in the bubbler, or for example if the reactor is not hot (we can consider sensors), just do not run the pump, and the pantone is inactive!

Being an electronics engineer and system programmer, it doesn't scare me at all to make a kind of panton air injection calculator!

------

Installation on my vehicle:

I want to install this system on my car. It is a laguna phase I of 98, petrol engine 2.0L, 115hp. All engine management is done by a computer, but I do not think it is a problem, I think it is even rather an advantage. I explain why:

The car has an on-board computer which tells me about real-time consumption (it will be practical for testing that !!).

Now I take a concrete example, let's say that I am stabilized at 100km / h on a flat road.
Real time consumption tells me 6.2L / 100km and remains extremely stable if I do not move my foot from the accelerator. Now, if the road starts to go down, and I don't move my accelerator foot, the car picks up speed, the engine takes turns, but the consumption drops a little. Normal since the computer detects that the car is less charged, so it injects less gasoline.
Now, if on the descent I lift my foot to stay at 100 km / h, then there the consumption decreases sharply, because the car is even less loaded.

So I tell myself that on a flat, stabilized at a certain speed, and the pantone system started, the car will tend to move more, and I will find myself in the same case as the descent: or else I do not lift the foot, and the car picks up speed while consuming the same or a little less, or else I lift my foot and there I will consume less.

So I don't think the pantone system is incompatible with electronic injections.

I studied the technical doc of my car, and the injection is regulated thanks to the following parameters and sensors:
- Water temperature (to know if the engine is hot)
- Air temperature at intake
- Depression in the intake manifold (to calculate the load of the car I think)
- Position of the throttle (therefore of the accelerator)
- Lambda probe

The pantone system would therefore influence the air temperature at the intake. As the air will be warmer, the calculator should deduce that the air is less dense and will adjust the richness by injecting less gasoline.

The only possible problem is the lambda probe. It seems that with the pantone system, the engine releases a lot of oxygen. The lambda probe will therefore make the calculator believe that the mixture is much too lean, and it should therefore inject more gasoline.

It is therefore possible that the computer is no longer able to find its way around too much and will default. Finally we will see, if this is the case, we will have to tinker with the lambda probe to tell the computer that everything is ok.

Otherwise I put my car on the bridge this afternoon (my stepfather is a garage owner, it helps;))

To place the reactor, I do not have 36 possibilities, it must be put in place of the catalyst.
I have the 4 exhausts of the cylinder head which meet in a Y at least 60cm from the cylinder head.
So I can't put the reactor as close as I wanted. Right after the Y, I have the Lambda probe.

And behind the lambda probe, I have an elbow, then 30 cm further the catalyst.
I cannot touch the tube which is between the Y and the catalyst, because it is he who integrates the lambda probe, and that would be too much work, because all this part is between the cockpit and the engine, therefore completely inaccessible.

So I have no choice, put yourself in the place of the catalyst. The big advantage is the simplicity to remove / replace the reactor, because there are 5 bolts to unscrew! And there's enough room to do something clean.
By cons I hope it will be warm enough :?

Well, I hope you have reached the end of my novel and that you are not too sleepy :D :D :D :D

Could you give me your opinions on my hypotheses and ideas?

See you soon
Last edited by nlc the 16 / 11 / 05, 19: 27, 1 edited once.
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Other
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by Other » 10/11/05, 17:09

Hello Nlc

in terms of reading consumption model injection
Basically this calculation is the duration of the pulses to the injectors, depending on the time and the number of injectors, there may be a slight error when the fuel filter begins to clog therefore slight lack of pressure at the injectors, but in the whole is reliable measurements.
If you have an oscilloscope at hand you will measure the signal from the lambda probe currently running and when you doped with water you will see the difference, the signal and wavy c, is an average, it is a very fluctuating signal in surgery. I gave up almost having devoted energy to want to modify this signal, but if you are in the business go to the computer, some model are reprogramable and the signal is looped towards a + 1,4volts it and it which determines the ratio, it is enough to have the possibility of changing this voltage, to change the ratio
Like all loop systems the probes fight a voltage and when it is zero the system is in equilibrium. If you work in instrumentation you know all that ....
Andre
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Yes, this lambda probe bp doesn't scare me




by nlc » 10/11/05, 17:28

If it ever poses problem I transfer it and I send to the calculator the good tension which will make it possible to say to him that the mixture is ok.

Otherwise, what do you think of my idea of ​​an air pump, to avoid having to tinker with a venturi on the intake and work hard to make adjustments?

At least it is no longer the engine which sucks in the panton air itself, it is the system which supplies it.

Obviously it complicates a bit because we add electronics, but I think that eventually, a panton injection box would be good.

My idea is also to heat the water in the bubbler with a heating resistance. We can therefore regulate the temperature we want to near ° C, and above all it further simplifies assembly, no need to divert the cooling water!

Otherwise on my car, I will not be able to make a reactor outlet / intake distance shorter than 1m or even 1m.

Isn't that a little too much? :? :?
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by Other » 10/11/05, 19:41

Reply to nick
I see you've never put an oscilloscope on a Lambda probe
it is not a potentiometer nor a thermocouple the probe generates a wavy signal which is creter like a squelch in the radios or a bias
In electronic language, it is not a simple voltage, it is the first thing I tried to replace the probe.
When to put a pump to suck in the panton it is feasible with a small vane pump, it must resist the heat and it requires lubrication, (short life)
Anyway with turbo engines this is a bit like what we do sucks in the reactor a small part of what the downstream engine.
at low speeds it does not give much to use the reactor it clearly lacks heat especially on a diesel.

We must find simple ways to operate the reactor, and use the lost heat energy, we must not believe that in a bubbler we heat and it is finished, what consumes a lot of heat is the fact that the water as it evaporates it cools the whole mess
and it takes a lot of heat to maintain this (cold) evaporation
For a bubbler that works with motor oil, a propane torch (the small blue that we find in the trade) c, is insufficient to keep in temperature a small bubbler for a 125cc, that gives you an idea of the heat required for an automobile.
Little advice takes you a week to do an assembly on a small engine before undertaking on a car, I bred for 3 years on a small engine and I thought I knew everything, when I did the assembly on the cars, I saw that I had a lot to learn, doping al, water is a whole different story than walking with fuels, just the principle which remains the same, with some variations.

Andre
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by nlc » 10/11/05, 19:57

Sisi, at the base the lambda probe outputs a voltage, which represents the oxygen level present in the exhaust gases.

But the thing is, this sensor is not linear at all, as soon as wealth increases a little bit, like 14/1, the sensor voltage increases sharply.
Ditto in the other direction, if the wealth decreases a little bit, like 15/1, the tension decreases also strongly.

This is why the voltage you have measured oscillates and looks like a square signal. Because the system cannot regulate correctly with this type of sensor. In fact it works almost all or nothing. If the computer detects a mixture that is too lean, it will hardly enrich it when the lambda probe will tip over to the other side. And vice versa.

Here is the operating curve of a lambda probe:

Image

We can clearly see that the slightest variation in the oxygen rate modifies the output voltage enormously.

There are now, I believe, more expensive lambda sensors, but which are more linear and allow real regulation. Here we are more in all or nothing. (hence the square signals)
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by zac » 10/11/05, 20:19

Hi nlc Hi André
Nlc before you take the lead, see the simple solutions. : Lol:
the various power supplies have all their advantages and disadvantages; made as simple as possible to start. There are 2 essential point 1: a temperature sufficient for the reactor to "hang". 2: a good vacuum in the reactor. :P
After when you will have respected these 2 points and that it will work you can evolve the system with electronics or other !!!!
For the evolution of the system I prefer simple system that works every time (even with an average yield) : Wink: ; that a great system that works once in a while (with a great yield) and that makes us pass for clowns the rest of the time. : Cry:
For those I ride I promise an anti-pollution system, for the rest the members see for themselves the benefits.
At your disposal for any tips.
@+
zac
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by nlc » 10/11/05, 20:22

André:

For the electric heating of the bubbler, I did not think that the evaporation of water could eat as much energy!
So I'm going to stay for now on a bubbler heated by the cooling water.
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by nlc » 10/11/05, 20:32

A zac:

Precisely, I exposed my idea about the pump because precisely it (in my opinion) simpler.
And yes, there would be no groping to find the right way to have effective suction in the bubbler. No need to adjust a venturi on the intake, etc ...

For me the pump seemed simpler, because we connect its outlet to the inlet of the intake without asking any questions, no need for a venturi or anything, since it is the pump that will push with the flow that we want to look pantoned. And no need for a valve or solenoid valve if you want to shut down the system, just shut off the pump.

But anyway, as André said, I think it will be difficult to find an adequate pump ...

My concern for the moment is the reactor :(
I'm going to have to find the ideal way to mount it.

Next week, I will scan a page of the technical doc of my car, on which there is the exhaust plan.

Maybe you can advise me on the most suitable location.
Because you can imagine that I don't want to screw up 36 exhaust pipes;)
Put the reactor in place of the catalyst would be nice, but it seems a bit far from the cylinder head :?

In any case, I will keep you posted on the progress of my installation. I'm going to try to test this as soon as possible, I'm tired of being a cash cow !! : Twisted:
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