Artisans, merchants, I love you me either

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bham
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Artisans, merchants, I love you me either




by bham » 15/03/09, 08:33

Christophe wrote:
bham wrote:But you seem astonished, you mean that as a craftsman you have a reduction ... let's say that a private individual cannot have ?


: Shock: Still happy, right? When one works it is to obtain an income generally not?

If artisans did not take advantage of the products they sell and install, how could they survive? Only on the workforce?

Most of the small freelancers must already make + 50h per week to earn the minimum wage ... all social security contributions deducted ...


bham wrote:I feel that we are leaving on slippery ground there, which is part of the Omerta domain.
I would only like to be able to buy products at the same price as the craftsmen if it is me who does the job because otherwise I pay at least 30% more with the purchase and the VAT on a product increased by 30%, which can be a barrier for many people.
I know the speech which says that it is to fight illegal work, .... etc, etc.
Still, the supplier does not lose by selling to the artisan at the artisan price, why would it be by selling to the individual at the artisan price?
I say that it is normal for artisans to play on the stuff they sell but:
- that manufacturers make the same prices to individuals who do the job themselves for their personal needs,
-that margins tend to explode, I am well placed to know it given the quotes I have had for 2 years, and especially the liberalization of prices.

And then if the work carried out is subject to tax credits or subsidies, the amount of the latter corresponds overall to the craftsman's margin.

Chris, I agree with you on the fact that craftsmen work hard to make a living, I just think that there needs to be a happy medium and not wanting to knock out customers.

For example, I know a German company that manufactures windows and sells both to professionals and to individuals (in this case it is their responsibility to install) at the same prices; well i can tell you that the french box that sells and does nothing but ask very correctly.
You are going to tell me that it gives life to salespeople, installers, it brings in professional taxes, it pays pensions, safety, ..... etc, yes of course, but if I can't afford the services what do I do with this box, I stay with my old windows, I go to Brico machin. So chic windows for the rich, rotten windows for the poor.
They don't care about the Germans, they sell to whoever wants and basta.
In any case, artisans will always find someone who will call them, because they have enough money, or because they don't know how to do it themselves.


Christophe wrote:
bham wrote:I would only like to be able to buy products at the same price as the craftsmen if it is me who does the job because otherwise I pay at least 30% more with the purchase and the VAT on a product increased by 30%, which can be a barrier for many people.


Well there I believe that you dream or then you only have to put yourself artisant and pay all the charges ...

When you go to Auchan you ask to pay the wholesale price?
Well it's the same ...

Still happy that manufacturers request a SIRET or a SIREN number (or a VAT number) before reselling their product at wholesale prices ...

bham wrote:- that manufacturers make the same prices to individuals who do the job themselves for their personal needs,


VAT pipote your reasoning ....

bham wrote:-that margins tend to explode, I am well placed to know it given the quotes I have had for 2 years, and especially the liberalization of prices.


Liberalization of what ???

bham wrote:And then if the work carried out is subject to tax credits or subsidies, the amount of the latter corresponds overall to the craftsman's margin.


It has nothing to do with your request ...

bham wrote:Chris, I agree with you on the fact that craftsmen work hard to make a living, I just think that there needs to be a happy medium and not wanting to knock out customers.


Ben become artisans and you will have the prices you want ...
Besides, there is a law that has just come out not to do micro-micro activity (because the micro-enterprise has existed for a while) .... It can be profitable on 1 site ...

bham wrote:For example, I know a German company that manufactures windows and sells both to professionals and to individuals (in this case it is their responsibility to install) at the same prices; well i can tell you that the french box that sells and does nothing but ask very correctly.


It would surprise me a LOT that they sell HT to individuals ...
So you're not going to see them then?

bham wrote:In any case, artisans will always find someone who will call them, because they have enough money, or because they don't know how to do it themselves.


Well there are some works: when you do it yourself in the end it will cost you more ... don't forget the 15% difference in VAT: it may be the cost of labor.

We just had 3 roller shutter boxes assembled and we were billed for 10% of the total bill... so if I had set up myself with VAT it would have cost me more. So I would have had NO interest in doing it myself ... except having trouble!

Must stop taking all sellers, independent or artisants for thieves who grease ... : Evil:
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by bham » 15/03/09, 10:01

Here I take again the beginning of debate on another thread of discussion that that of the triple glazing.

Christophe wrote:
Well there are some works: when you do it yourself in the end it will cost you more ... don't forget the 15% difference in VAT: it may be the cost of labor.

We just had 3 roller shutter boxes assembled and we were billed for 10% of the total bill... so if I had set up myself with VAT it would have cost me more. So I would have had NO interest in doing it myself ... except having trouble!

Must stop taking all sellers, independent or artisants for thieves who grease ... : Evil:


Alors Yes Christophe I know that it can be financially interesting to call on a craftsman and you give a very good example.
Et non Christophe, I never said that all the sellers, ... artisans were all thieves who grease themselves.

But you and I will always find examples and counter-examples to illustrate each one's own argument. Besides, have you not repeatedly rebelled on this forum against the qq little salty invoices of some PAC installers, taking advantage of the subsidy effect, among others, thus criticizing the practices of certain craftsmen?
Didn't you say, particularly with regard to car manufacturers, that their margins were very comfortable and that you did not know according to what prices were fixed, but in any case and in other economic fields, probably according to the prices charged by the competition and not according to the cost price?

To clarify the situation, I think that we must consider the main activity (AP) of the craftsman or the trader.
That of the trader is obviously trade, it is therefore normal that he can live on margins on the products sold, he renders a service which he charges in this way.
On the other hand, the craftsman's AP is generally his manual work and incidentally a little trade, so it seems normal to me that he can live largely thanks to his know-how, thanks to his manual work and incidentally thanks in its commercial activity, the latter should constitute, AMHA, only a financial contribution of comfort and not an income necessary for its survival; because in this case, what would the plumber come to change only one joint?
But if, as Christophe and Bucheron say, the commercial margin on the products placed is essential to the survival of the craftsman, that means for me that there is a problem, that manual work is no longer recognized, that the craftsman becomes more and more commercial, that the charges are undoubtedly too heavy, for the benefit of whom (?). Besides, let's not forget that craftsmen are considered by the State as tax collectors (VAT).

This drift towards an "always more" in the image of our society / system irritates me deeply. Indeed if I take into consideration this commercial argument essential to the survival of the craftsman, that means that nothing is repaired any more, thus privileging the waste (it is moreover often more expensive to repair), that we install what brings the most profit, without giving a damn about the quality and / or the durability of the product.
It is certain that economically this policy generates more turnover and therefore more tax revenue, therefore artisans and traders to adapt and pass on the tax pressure to the end customer, therefore customers to bear all the charges , except, as we can see right now, when the client is desired.
Rather than "always more" which cannot be infinite, it might be time to ask if the money collected is always used well, for example.
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by Christophe » 15/03/09, 10:20

Sorry, I don't really understand the interest of this subject: what exactly do you mean?

Do you want individuals to have access to wholesale prices?

Pkoi do not you take a trade register ... by paying the charges which go with recess ...

You seem to mix commercial margin (normal) and overcharging (not normal).

How do you make a living?
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by elephant » 15/03/09, 11:42

+1, Christophe!
When you already see all the fixed costs that must be compensated before earning the 1st cent (already at least 500 euros of social legislation every quarter, to be paid whether we earn money or not, accountant fees, prospecting fees , publicity, compulsory civil liability insurance, so on and better)

If that can reassure one or the other: in textile shoe, the coefficient varies in 2 and 3, in horeca too!
in electronic or electrical equipment, we are very happy when we can do between 1,3 and 1,65

in crafts, we consider that we must multiply the price of the goods by 3 (installed price) if we want to get out.

Also, don't forget that it would be particularly unwise for a craftsman to cut prices and make colleagues look like thieves. If when you start you have few fixed costs, it will not last!
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by chatelot16 » 15/03/09, 13:19

the current mode of remunerating the craftsmen by the margin on the supplies instead of the real manpower is very bad: it is the best means of obliging the craftsmen to waste new material instead of repairing what should 'to be

if the craftsmen did not have a different discount from the customers, they would have to charge the labor force at a fair price to make a living, and the customer would have to pay this fair price even if he were superior, but against part the material would not be increased by a margin, and the craftsman would have no reason to claim new when the repair is possible: the result would be ecologically positive: we would repair more to consume less!

my current mode of remunerating the craftsmen by the margin more than by the workforce is a means of devalorizing his work and his competence and putting it at the orders of the big manufacturers

I therefore do not dare to criticize the craftsmen: I especially criticize those who order: large supplier, chamber of trade or commerce who do nothing to manage this properly!
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by Ahmed » 15/03/09, 13:54

Very relevant reflections from Chatelot16 which points to the drift towards the "merchandization" of any activity.

To answer to Bahm, it should be understood that the discount from suppliers to artisans must be analyzed as a wholesale price, that is to say applying to consistent and regular volumes. As soon as an individual plans a sufficiently large personal site, he is in a position to request a discount on the list price.
It should also be noted that the artisan "tariff" has no institutional existence and only depends on the merchant's appreciation in relation to the turnover brought by each of his clients.

Prices therefore express above all a balance of power between buyers and sellers, on the one hand, and between sellers on the other (competition or agreement).
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by Christophe » 15/03/09, 17:57

Ahmed wrote:Very relevant reflections from Chatelot16 which points to the drift towards the "merchandization" of any activity.


Not too much in agreement with Chatelot (for once, it's rather rare) since the MO is always billed: no building site is invoiced only on the material (on a good estimate the installation is detailed, it is surely even compulsory)... and it is generally negotiable contrary to the price of the fixed material.

In addition: do not get the debate wrong!

The fact of not repairing installations and dumping for any failure due to lack of competence or loss of earnings (or rather of the CA) is something not very intelligent but to bring a lawsuit to the craftsmen because they rely on the material it is worse: it's bullshit!

So let's admit that the price of the equipment is strictly the same for everyone: pros and individuals.

As the material and MO are detailed on the invoice and estimate, what will happen to you?

a) The cost of the Manpower will be multiplied (and I remind you that the sacrosanct holy tax credits do NOT concern the OM) because the charges of the craftsman and need of margins will be identical!

b) People will tinker more (or at least try, mounting a chassis is a job ...) with an uncertain result (a chassis is installed for 20 or 30 years!) + risks of various installation. Certain trades are regulated: do you think it is a coincidence? For example: anyone who dares to install a gas boiler to save € 200 in labor and risk blowing up the whole neighborhood is just a con ... and crazy!

c) There will therefore be less activity in the direction of GDP and much more "black" editing

So bham, go buy your chassis in a DIY hard discount: you will get them cheaper than the wholesalers price of 90% of artisans but STP stops suing small traders and artisans ... because they are the ones who will pay your retirement (90% of employment in France = SME) and they generally find it difficult to relocate or tax abroad as large groups can afford!

So rather spit on the insolent margins of real estate agencies or developers ... for example!

Ahmed wrote:Prices therefore express above all a balance of power between buyers and sellers, on the one hand, and between sellers on the other (competition or agreement).


Power balance is empty says: this is true provided that the client knows how to negotiate!!
Nothing obliges a customer to sign an order if it is not within his means ...
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by Philippe Schutt » 15/03/09, 19:03

there are still other points to consider:
as soon as a craftsman sells a material, he enters into a business. he selects the product, presents it, sells it, eventually goes looking for it.
He must visit fairs, attend sales training, etc. like any trader.
This work must be paid for. Transferring all of these costs to labor would not be a good calculation.

Nowadays, we find it normal to have high incomes but we do not want to pay enough to provide the artisan with the same income. Our understanding of prices and costs is distorted by the automation of factories and massive imports from countries with very low labor costs.
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by Christophe » 15/03/09, 19:11

+1 good clarification, Philippe.

This is the kind of pro charges that I included in "charges" of my 1st answer but it was not very detailed:

... by paying the charges which go with recess ...
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by bham » 15/03/09, 19:25

Christophe wrote:So bham, go buy your chassis in a DIY hard discount: you will get them cheaper than the wholesalers price of 90% of artisans but STP stops suing small traders and artisans ... because they are the ones who will pay your retirement (90% of employment in France = SME) and they generally find it difficult to relocate or tax abroad as large groups can afford!

So rather spit on the insolent margins of real estate agencies or developers ... for example! ..


I have just discovered your messages, which clearly show that there can be debate. Before coming back to it tomorrow, I would like to tell Christophe that I am not aggressive, I will appreciate that you are not, so please stop "extremizing" my words, I do not spit on anyone and I do not trial to all small traders and artisans, I thought I had been sufficiently explicit above.
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