Turbulence in the Pantone reactor?

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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lau
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by lau » 30/03/06, 00:27

lio, i just finished changing my reactor, i put a wick with a weak gap and held by a spring, i want you to juice on my column.

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bolt
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by bolt » 30/03/06, 21:47

Good evening

lau wrote: I think the solution is in the right air gap with the right pipe diameters and the right lengths


I think the main thing is to have the maximum possible flow in the rod-tube inter-iron, and therefore to avoid pressure losses as much as possible outside the reactor, knowing that, for those who have a bubbler, there is already 10 or 20 cm of pressure drop in height of water, created by it, depending on the height of water that is put there to bubble (unless the holes or slots that bubble are not quite numerous and brake more)
so it already makes us 10 to 20 milibar minimum loss in the engine intake pipe (without having any effect for the moment in the reactor), just to bubble
If we want "flow electrification" in the reactor, it is imperative to "friction" (due to the passage of steam)
And for that, you obviously need a pressure drop in the reactor and not in the upstream and downstream pipes
Or you have to have pressure drop to spare, as in the case of a downstream reactor line between the fuel and the engine on a gasoline vehicle, and again, this is only at idle and a little more .
On a diesel, we always try to have the least pressure drop possible on admission.
How much can we add to that produced by the bubbler so as not to penalize the engine power too much?
If we choose to have an overall loss of 50 mbar, with 20 cm of water in the bubbler we have 30 mbar available for the reactor
But that does not mean anything, because it cannot be respected for the whole range of regime.
On a tractor we hear that it has to start bubbling around 1000 rpm. if begin "bubbling" at 1000 rpm, at this speed the pressure drop in the reactor is therefore almost zero. Even if there is steam passing, it does not rub not much, even if there is a "functional" depression of 20 mbar in the reactor (I say "functional", but I don't know how much it is necessary to have as "vacuum" in a reactor)

So we have a bubbler which "bubbles" from 1000 rpm to say 2300 rpm for a tractor, but a reactor which "useful rubs" from 1500 to 2300 rpm, knowing that there is about 65% less flow at 1500 than at 2300 rpm
And that obviously, there is practically 0 friction at 1000 rpm, maximum friction at 2300 rpm
If at least we knew the minimum speed of the vapor which causes the useful friction within the reactor, by calculation we could adapt the dimensions to our pieces of scrap to get there.
You need 3 things at the same time:
1: the right temperature
2: the vacuum
3: friction (i.e. speed)
one without the other does not work, and worse, very often to have one, we cancel the other (a deeper vacuum increases friction, but limits the temperature)

To find out where you are, you can start by calculating what goes into your reactor:
first measure the pressure drop you have (vacuum between upstream and downstream of the reactor)
after you can use this little software online and put your reactor dimensions there, as it gives the pressure drop as a result, you have to fumble with several flows to approach the result you have in "pressure drop"

André, you asked me the question on how to quantify what happens in a reactor, you can have fun on this site:
http://www.pressure-drop.com/

see you
bolt
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bob_isat
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by bob_isat » 31/03/06, 15:27

Absolutely agree with you, you must minimize the pressure drops before and after the reactor to have a maximum air flow in the reactor, therefore a maximum friction speed.

We are impatiently awaiting the results of load displacement in the conduits led by camel1
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lau
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by lau » 31/03/06, 23:18

Very good bolt, I agree with you. In any case, you seem damn convinced of what you are saying; so you applied this software to your personal case, what savings do you get? or advantages?
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Other
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by Other » 01/04/06, 03:47

Hello Bolt
Thanks for the software
But we must ask ourselves several questions about the pressure drop point in the reactor circuit
Why should we have a reactor outlet pipe that has 2 or 3 times more mm2 in cross-section than the passage of the reactor rod?
a large duct results in expansion at the outlet of the reactor
as well as a decrease in gas speed
(On my 300td diesel I had a 14mm copper pipe I replaced it with a 21mm pipe and the results became worse) The next pipe will have exactly the same size as the residual rod tube

For me there is no doubt that the speed must be high between the rod and body of the reactor, but nothing proves that it is necessary to make pass the maximum of gas in the reactor, under vacuum the speed should be higher, a droplet circulates more slowly in a dense atmosphere.

What intrigues me with my last tests, currently on my Chevrolet j, I have a rod of 12,7mm a reactor of 15mm interior
the reactor outlet copper tube that I test currently makes 1/4, that is 4,7 mm inside, a length of 62cm, (voluntarily longer, after having tested a length of 1,5 meters) and yet I spend the same amount of steam is 1,5 liters of water per 100km, the same amount as when I had an internal 14mm duct
the difference is that the duct and much warmer it exceeds 200c, as I use the vehicle with a trailer I can not give precise figures on consumption.

we must not think that everything happens in the reactor, we must not neglect what happens before and after the reactor.

We can have the nicest well-designed super-square engine
but if you put a bad intake and exhaust manifold, it may malfunction.
The intake manifold in an engine is not just a piece of hose.

Certain panton fitter, notably on a petrol engine, places a valve on the engine outlet; it operates the valve almost closed!
What becomes of the depression in the reactor? and even more in the bubbler?

Now I am far from being convinced that the pressure drop with a bubbler is the same as that caused by a small carburetor,
The pressure drop with the 4mm nozzle carburetor increases with flow.
While the pressure drop made with the bubbler once started it does not increase with the flow
The bubbler acts like a sort of PCV valve once it exceeds its opening threshold, it makes almost no restriction.

In the extreme, we could completely eliminate the reactor inlet duct (case of the spad) and almost eliminate the outlet duct
by a very large tube. Yet all known fixtures that work have a 14mm tube and sometimes 1 meter longer
and rarely isolated? Is this a reason for simplicity's rusticity?
it is all these things that I seek to prove, the smallest conduits that I tested it is 1,6mm internal the problem with small conduits they come very hot and oxidizes al, interior to finish share clogging only in 400km
I even tried to put stainless steel wires in the pipes, first to unclog them and to increase internal friction
(a passage of steam in a long copper pipe produces an electric charge)
And on this point I agree with Exocean's theory that the water doping reactor produces a kind of gas with a high oxygen content
several visible clues, the Lambda probe has detected a surplus oxidation of the copper pipe at the reactor outlet looks strange and strangely to the air conditioning pipe and water disinfectors, and the most surprising is to run a diesel at full power with half of the filter plugged in.

But as long as no one measures what comes out of the reactor with a gas analyzer, it is only an assumption. I will provide a tap on the pipe to make this measurement.

Andre
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lio74
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by lio74 » 01/04/06, 07:48

lau wrote:lio, i just finished changing my reactor, i put a wick with a weak gap and held by a spring, i want you to juice on my column.

@+
hi everyone, hi Lau! :D
I see that you went to the end of your idea with the wick, you put it as a rod :!: I thought you talked about it as a turbulator ... I'm impatient to know the result !!
I had already read on quanthomme that a guy had centered his rod with 1 or 2 spring, but I do not know if the spring crossed tt the reactor ??

if not for the other post of econologists ... I would read more carefully tomorrow ... there are two paving stones which I think are very interesting !!!

good day to all : Cheesy: :!:
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zac
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by zac » 01/04/06, 07:50

Hello

With the smell; it probably comes out of the exhaust ozone.
I suspected it but it was confirmed to me by the nose of a swimming pool installer so I equipped the vans.

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lio74
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by lio74 » 01/04/06, 12:35

hi hi everyone :)
Andre wrote: (On my 300td diesel I had a 14mm copper pipe I replaced it with a 21mm pipe and the results became worse) The next pipe will have exactly the same size as the residual rod tube


ok with you. I said to Lau previously, to try to have sections (manifold and annular section of the reactor) equal to the original intake manifold! I think it can help. : Arrowd:

Andre wrote: We can have the nicest well-designed super-square engine
but if you put a bad intake and exhaust manifold, it may malfunction.

The intake manifold in an engine is not just a piece of hose.

hence the challenge of modeling a spreadsheet to know the variations of T °, ​​V, P of the gas circulating in the system ...
Bolt wrote:You need 3 things at the same time:
1: the right temperature
2: the vacuum
3: friction (i.e. speed)
one without the other does not work, and worse, very often to have one, we cancel the other (a deeper vacuum increases friction, but limits the temperature)

To find out where you are, you can start by calculating what goes into your reactor:
first measure the pressure drop you have (vacuum between upstream and downstream of the reactor)
then you can use this little software online and put your reactor dimensions there ...

merci pour le lien :D
-> for Bob ?, yes it is free software : Lol: but they are often not very user-friendly and a little rigid in their use, that's why we can try to make one : Idea: you need the necessary concepts in mechanics and thermodynamics of course! I hope to live up to my ambitions :?

I think camel1 is pretty good off for all that ... it has a bit of gear under the elbow and a real model to make measurements! : Arrowd: I wish him courage !!!
Andre wrote: But as long as no one measures what comes out of the reactor with a gas analyzer, it is only an assumption. I will provide a tap on the pipe to make this measurement.


@+
0 x
"To do something is expensive, to do nothing will cost much more." Koffie Annan

next species endangered: Man ... and it will be good for him !!!

MAN IS A VERY DANGEROUS POLLUTION NATURAL!
Other
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posts: 3787
Registration: 17/03/05, 02:35
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by Other » 02/04/06, 05:16

Hello

When we talk about turbulence in the reactor, I am not talking about helical turbulence around the rod.
What you need to know when a fluid or more particularly a gas circulates in a conduit, there is an effect of walls, that is to say that on the surface of the conduit there is friction, the fluid wants to stick to the wall and on this thin layer, the fluid circulates in a turbulent way, it is only in the middle of the duct that the circulation is laminar.
This turbulent circulation depends on several factors, nature of the smooth or rough wall, the speed of the flow, the viscosity of the fluid and the diameter of the duct.
In the case of the reactor we have the reactor walls and the rod walls, so two zones of thin turbulence, if the air gap is small, or the rough or contaminated walls there can be no laminar flow between these two layers.
I think we should have just two turbulent layers without leaving a thin laminar layer,
the exchange of temperature with the walls is much better when it is turbulent.

Andre
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lau
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by lau » 02/04/06, 10:39

In the case of a reduced gap, it is better to have a smooth surface everywhere or rough everywhere (in this case you say that there is no laminar flow therefore to avoid) or smooth by the tube and rough by the rod (iron drawn for example)?
Last night I rolled a bit with the wick in the other direction; that is to say that the narrowed base of the wick (the side that is connected to the drill) was this time at the end of the reactor and to my great surprise, the blue / pink point moved on this base .
For those who did not follow, here is the mouth of the wick at the first experience
Image
And by the second with the wick in the other direction
Image
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The number of molecules in a drop of water is equal to the number of drop that contains the Black Sea!

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