The operation of the water doping: chart?

[professeur31]

Hello

I was not aware of this research that there is another group that works on the duration of the injection so that during most of the motor aspiration is medium and even more sequentially during a suction stroke.

But for the reinjection of the exhaust gases, it is not for the unbrushed it is to operate a motor explosion (cold)
and the main reason eliminate nox rejections.
Although 70% is back, we are getting closer to the closed circuit.
in panton the march circuit férme is experimentable but not in 100% panton, in bubbler with water and gasoline it works a certain time then the power drops until the stop of the engine.
Now remains to know if the return of these exhaust gases in the admission considerably increases the thermal efficiency?
or if it's just for reasons of standards imposed pollution.

Yes the HCCI principle, that's it; the aim is to obtain a combustion qualified as "cold" at around 1000 ° K.
The main goal is of course to better control the production of NOX difficult and expensive to treat post treatment.
The internal recycling of ech gas will also stabilize the temperature at the end of compression thanks to hot gases.
The first tests seem interesting and there is no doubt that the diesels of tomorrow will use this technology.

[camel1]

The recombination is exothermic, certainly, but the dissociation, it consumes energy (thermal?) I suppose?
Even if the primitive heating by the reactor and the electrification which can act like a catalyst (lowering of the energy level to reach for the reaction to start) facilitates the thing, there is inevitably a loss somewhere, it seems to me ?

Hello !

Good question, I had already asked ...

Yes, the dissociation is andothermal (it eats calories), but we must not forget that, in the case of an engine, what interests us is the useful mechanical energy that is recovered from the pressure of the combustion gas.

The flame, we do not care, the flame, it must cool, since the heat it releases borders the 70% of the overall energy generated.

This means for example, if we do the calculations "with a ladle", that for an engine of 50 hp (useful power), whose efficiency is 30%, we have:

Pmot = 50cv X 736 W = 36800 W, ie 36,8 KW
Pmot = 30% of Ptot (total power)
therefore, Ptot = 36,8 * 100 / 30 = 122 KW

We deduce the energy dissipated in the form of heat, Pc:

Ptot-Pmot = Pc, here about 86 KW ...

This is the "lost" energy, the one from which we try to extract something with the pantone (among others).
It should not be forgotten either that Pt is the nominal energy of the mill, but that for a car, the engine is rarely solicited in its maxima, and tends to work under load ... let's say 20% ... it still leaves about 17 KW to dissipate (the equivalent of 8 electric radiators of 2000W ...)

This heat is evacuated by the cooling system (air, water, oil), and residual, in the exhaust line, and ultimately in the air, because the GE are hot ...

The fact that the cracking is andothermal is not a problem in that we have a huge energy field, in which we can shamelessly tap to light our watery firecracker ...
... after the end, it will be a little less calories to be evacuated by our cooling system, (we must try to draw maximum
Let us not forget either that the exothermic reaction which follows the dissociation will itself restore part of the energy that it had previously "pumped" (T ° combustion of hydrogen, 2300 ° C). )

Of course, we have to find the right ratios between the size of the H2O molecule cluster, the total amount of electrified vapor swallowed in the intake, and the amount of fuel that will be burned - necessary and sufficient - we will try to reduce as much as possible.

All is about limit, find the right settings, it's all about measures and manip to mount.
We're working on it, going home, we're getting a BE, with a test bench, it's going to be serious
It remains to find the corner where to put the gear (yanaplein !!! )


A + + +

[Woodcutter]

[...] The flame, we do not care, the flame, we must cool it, since the heat it releases borders the 70% of the global energy generated. [...]

Nah, as already said on another post, there is friction. I seem to remember that it is about 1 / 3 of motive power (gas pressure) 1 / 3 of heat, and 1 / 3 of friction in an engine.
But hey, it leaves a sacred margin anyway ...

The fact that the cracking is andothermal is not a problem in that we have a huge energy field, in which we can shamelessly tap to light our watery firecracker ...

This is where I do not agree because, unless I did not understand anything, the "cracking" would not be done in the Pantone reactor (where indeed, we recover the "lost" energy ) but in the combustion chamber, at 2000 ° C as you said in your previous message. And this is going to pump energy somewhere, it seems to me?
This is why I wonder what is the real part of energy that we can recover by the Pantone, which is only an instrument of "facilitation" of the reaction, as long as that is really that. that takes place in a pantonized engine.

[Other]

Hello

Nah, as already said on another post, there is friction. I seem to remember that it is about 1 / 3 of motive power (gas pressure) 1 / 3 of heat, and 1 / 3 of friction in an engine.
But hey, it leaves a sacred margin anyway ...

Losses for an old diesel generation

cooling circuit from 30 to 35%
exhaust gas from 20 to 25%
Lubrication and friction oil from 8 to 10%

This is why I wonder what is the real part of energy that we can recover by the Pantone, which is only an instrument of "facilitation" of the reaction, as long as that is really that. that takes place in a pantonized engine

.

we can find half in the 20 25% exhaust and a little on the 30 35% cooling if we use a bubbler, in fact if we manage to transform a small 10 has 15% in total is already fine unless something else happens at the moment of combustion, that is the unknown and the hypotheses,
one thing is on when the exhaust transfers some of its heat into the panton and the engine runs colder on its cooling circuit, this heat did not fade into the engine (the heat of the engine cooling j ' I was not so late until ZAC made me notice
and I understood only when I was more careful in driving odds and long climb, since I also verrify the temperature of the heater to the HV, as there are few ratings around me and that at ZAC c is its daily relief ..

Andre

[Woodcutter]

Okay, I thought friction was more than that ...

Maybe because the examples I remember came from engines running at high speeds?

[MichelM]

Hello
I found an example (for a gasoline engine) in "Internal combustion engine technology"by Ch. CLOS
Energy released by friction and accessories F = 5%
but:
"Note 1:
It should be noted that the overall efficiency decreases at partial load due to the increase in pumped losses.
Au quarter load, the overall yield drops to around 20%.
Note 2:
The actual work that is found at the end of the engine is not yet the one used to advance the car. In relation to this work, we will still have 10% loss of transmission. "


Long live the electric motor, remains to find the batteries that can hold as much energy as 10 L gasoline ....
Michel

[Other]

Hello

Do not worry; the recycling of exhaust gases is far from over and the HCCI engines that will appear use up to 70% of the volume to control diesel combustion in homogeneous mode.
But in this case and to avoid fouling, the residual gases are used in the chamber by controlling the valves in an optimum manner.

Something intrigues me with a big% of exhaust gas returned to the 70% engine which is huge, Knowing that the combustion in an explosion engine produces a good amount of water vapor if we start to turn the gases around. each explosion generates more and more water vapor that will make a little oxygen and nitrogen (in the 30% of air swallowed) and a lot of exhaust gas. and 30% exhaust gas output, normally the oxygen disappears almost completely and combines to make water and CO l, nitrogen serves only to make a spring in the cycle.
what is advantageous in the reinjection of the heat of the exhaust gas or the inert gas, or the water vapor?
In this principle one could make a closed circuit engine like the military divers just with pure oxygen and it recycles the gases it expels. so an engine that eats its entire exhaust except that it enriches just with a little oxygen pure in passing.

Last year I tested on the buick, discarding the ERG valve on a short test I found that its consumption had slightly increased, but I can not quantify it just, it would take more test to reach a conclusion , but I think the reinjection of exhaust gas and accompanied by very little water vapor too and I asked myself the question if it is not the little water vapor that was beneficial?
What also quibbles me is that we install intercoolers at the exit of the turbo and we do not preoccupy to cool the exhaust gas ERG?
One could make a similarity with the panton if one considers water vapor as an inert gas one would fulfill the same role as the ERG valve with something clean. From experience we know that to eat too much steam does not improve performance, on the contrary (although it may be question of steam temperature and excessive heat absorption in the combustion chamber of the engine)
I think that research on ERG valve and panton have something in common ..

On the practical side, the fouling found on the old diesel even with an ERG valve in perfect working order and especially driven by the recycling of the oil vapor of the crankcase, an old engine sends a portion of gas which causes drops of oil suspended in the crankcase sucked by the turbo and led into the collector at the same time as the hot gases ERG it follows a sticky molasses in the intake manifold which reduces the passage of air to the valve. We know that the intake manifold is not a simple pipe, it is more elaborate than that ..

Andre

[bolt]

the admission of water in micro-drops (not evaporated) in an engine is likely to reduce the combustion temperature.
does she delay her too?

the admission of dry steam only partly takes the place of air:
1) which is not harmful at partial load, but at full load (full flow injection pump) here is the problem of lack of oxygen.
2) this replaces part of the principle EGR: less new nitrogen sucked, but suddenly, it does not recycle NOx

what could be beneficial when vacuuming dry steam (irrespective of an ionizing or pantone effect):
it all depends on the T ° at which the water is spitting:
if I suppose 1500 ° C and normal combustion T ° of for example 2000 ° C:
we know that cracking of water is highly endothermic, so if there is steam in the combustion:

1) this steam will prevent the combustion to go up in T °, ​​the time while it itself finishes its crackage

2) after the end of the crack, if there is not enough steam, the T ° will rise a little above the 1500 ° C (not enough steam to crack to continue the regulation of T ° by the effect endothermic cracking)

3) until now, the steam did not give much motive power (does H or H2 and O separate occupy more space than H2O in dry steam? )

4) and as long as the T ° remains above 1500 ° C (cracking threshold that I took as an example): impossibility of "explosion" (of recombination) of hydrogen with oxygen, since it does exceeding 1500 ° C is supposed to separate them

5) combustion has been slowed down or / and capped by the presence of steam

6) when the piston goes down a little more, the expansion of the volume lowers the T °, ​​but this T ° will "level off" towards "a little less than 1500 ° C":
while all the hydrogen and oxygen recombine (burn)

7) when the combustion (or explosion) of all H and O is finite, the T ° can resume its decrease, during the rest of the volume expansion

is my example of T ° (combustion and cracking) credible in reality : to see in reality with the real conditions of pressure

we could then think that the water vapor improves the engines which have a combustion too fast

on gasoline engines: the flame front may be limited in T °, ​​thus decreasing NOx

What do you think

bolt

[Other]

Hello Bolt

1) which is not harmful at partial load, but at full load (full flow injection pump) here is the problem of lack of oxygen.

I think it's the opposite, in a diesel full-load diesel l injection is in a very short time and it is not the lack of air that makes it smokes, but the amount of diesel that must cross a flame front to find a way to find air back, not to mention the too much diesel that has just sprayed it brutally and makes a ignition of mass + knock, so it is at this moment that a a dose of well-proportioned water vapor in this air acts as a long flame, as if a sheet of gas mixed with a pile of rocks were ignited, this would explain the softening of the engine
While at mid speed the engine is softer in function and that the dose of water does not save much on performance.

it all depends on the T ° at which the water is spitting:
if I suppose 1500 ° C and normal combustion T ° of for example 2000 ° C:
we know that cracking of water is highly endothermic, so if there is steam in the combustion:

1) this steam will prevent the combustion to go up in T °, ​​the time while it itself finishes its crackage

2) after the end of the crack, if there is not enough steam, the T ° will rise a little above the 1500 ° C (not enough steam to crack to continue the regulation of T ° by the effect endothermic cracking

I am not closed to a cracking, but I am not convinced that there is a cracking, that is to say a double transformation of water> hydrogen oxygen and return to water, although I look with the eye of a handyman, but if we proceed by elimination this hypothesis becomes not very realistic.
If it were that the more water would be fed to the engine the more the yield would increase (even if this water was prepared in an auxiliary reactor heated with another source of energy)
we know that as soon as we introduce too much water it is the reverse effect, even if it is well treated.
(I know there is Mr G but it's the only one that goes by water
I would be surprised if the Renault researchers did not reproduce the same editing as him in a week for them it's a song)

on gasoline engines: the flame front may be limited in T °, ​​thus decreasing NOx

The flame front in a gasoline engine is faster than in a diesel although the chamber is larger
Which explains why a diesel engine has long been running at 3500 rpm we have not reached the 6000 rpm yet
I do not say that it is impossible but not easy to achieve with heavy diesel.

As for the role of water on combustion, this summer when I would take tests, well measured with walking exclusively with oil and exclusively with diesel fuel, because I noticed that there is a difference with the quantity of water depending on whether you are running on oil or diesel. Why can not we learn more about what happens in combustion.
To date consomation of equal water, running on diesel and running oil there is very little gain in doping with water with oil, I do not know yet if it is necessary to reduce the Consumption of water with oil, the last experiences this autumn is to increase the water and it is without results.
With a mixture of 50% diesel / oil it is approximately the same amount of water to have a good yield as 100% diesel.
This will explain why ZAC consumes less water than me, it works with oil ..

Andre

[laurent.delaon]

Bonojour Bolt from Smarty,

the admission of water in micro-drops (not evaporated) in an engine is likely to reduce the combustion temperature.
does she delay it too?

yes, it causes the temperature to fall due to the evaporation of the water.
Then this vapor delays (I do not know how ') but I am AFFIRMATIF, prevents the first explosions (due to the cracking attention to false friends ...) of the diesel, which results in the decrease of significant vibrations.
It has the effect (see Clerget) to extend the combustion cycle and delay it, which implies a better combustion that conjugated with my first remark contributes to the increase of the THERMAL output of the engine for diesel in any case.

2) this replaces part of the principle EGR: less new nitrogen sucked, but suddenly, it does not recycle NOx

no combusiotn is almost complete (see above) therefore imbrules and everything that goes with it.

what could be beneficial when vacuuming dry steam (irrespective of an ionizing or pantone effect):
it all depends on the T ° at which the water is spitting:

no water does not spit it is the gas that sputters with the presence of water vapor (shade).

if I suppose 1500 ° C and normal combustion T ° of for example 2000 ° C:

not rather 1200 ° C at best on the flame front.

we know that cracking of water is highly endothermic, so if there is steam in the combustion:

1) this steam will prevent the combustion to go up in T °, ​​the time while it itself finishes its crackage

2) after the end of the crack, if there is not enough steam, the T ° will rise a little above the 1500 ° C (not enough steam to crack to continue the regulation of T ° by the effect endothermic cracking)

see after

3) until now, the steam did not give much motive power (does H or H2 and O separate occupy more space than H2O in dry steam Question)

the steam is just a kind of catalyst, we do not care about the separation of the H2O the hydrogen does not come from but of the diesel in major part.

4) and as long as the T ° remains above 1500 ° C (cracking threshold that I took as an example): impossibility of "explosion" (of recombination) of hydrogen with oxygen, since it does exceeding 1500 ° C is supposed to separate them

yes but it's a bad example c pltutot to 800 ° It's 80 bar (ca c important) that things happen for us: it's the cracking vapo.

5) combustion has been slowed down or / and capped by the presence of steam

it is exactly delayed.

6) when the piston goes down a little more, the expansion of the volume lowers the T °, ​​but this T ° will "level off" towards "a little less than 1500 ° C":
while all the hydrogen and oxygen recombine (burn)

it is the hygrogene produced during vapocrackage, which brings the energy, that it lacks to Cristophe, in his report based solely on the decomposition of water, and for which he concludes, quite rightly, that this does not can not walk with only the decomposition of water.It is this hygrogene that exploding down the piston more energetically eventuellment if the hypothesis of vapocrackage and verified.

7) when the combustion (or explosion) of all H and O is finite, the T ° can resume its decrease, during the rest of the volume expansion

??

is my example of T ° (combustion and cracking) credible in reality Question: to see in reality with the real conditions of pressure

no c not quite that ...

we could then think that the water vapor improves the engines which have a combustion too fast

it would be more accurate to say who homogenizes the combustion and the etale in time ...

on gasoline engines: the flame front may be limited in T °, ​​thus decreasing NOx

what do you think about it?

Well, that's all ...
but by the way, we notice that all this happens with the pantone reactor and is much more logical than the elucubrations we can read and to which some have contributed in spite of themselves and in which others persevere and sign.
but:
When the finger shows the moon the fool looks at the finger ...