Pantone engine: scientific explanation translated !!

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
bolt
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by bolt » 26/11/06, 17:16

well, i made a drawing : Mrgreen:
Image
Image

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Other
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by Other » 27/11/06, 02:18

Hello,
Already knowing when the operation is more economical is already a plus,
Now it remains to be seen how you control the flow of steam coming out of the bubbler or that swallowing in the engine. Also know if a variation in the steam flow in the reactor changes the reading on the insulated tube.
Leaving aside the reading, I suppose that a lot of panton fitters did like me, trying different water consumption and different regimes, and measured the consumption on the test runs. (I don't have instant playback)
When I insulated the copper tube in the same way, save with a plastic ring because rubber tubes do not last long, it was to see if it improved the yield,
and there I did not notice a big difference. I have not yet succeeded in achieving an interesting economy in city driving with doping, we can always say it is because of cold starts, but long driving in town doping is far from the results on the road and even worse with petrol engine ..

Andre
Last edited by Other the 27 / 11 / 06, 15: 30, 1 edited once.
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bob_isat
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by bob_isat » 27/11/06, 14:07

Andre wrote:Hello,
Already knowing when the operation is more economical is already a plus,


Totally agree !

Andre wrote:When I insulated the copper tube in the same way, save with a plastic ring because rubber tubes do not last long, it was to see if it improved the yield,
and there I did not notice a big difference.


the insulation of the intermediate tube is just a measuring tool, it has no reason to improve or degrade the geet gas.

I thought about the thermocouple hypothesis, which should not be dismissed ... right away.

there is a good course on the subject here:

http://home.tiscali.be/lestechniques/re ... ermocuple1

and on wikipedia:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple

we learn that the potential difference dV is proportional to the Seebeck Sab coefficient of the thermocouple, multiplied by the temperature difference dT.

Image


here are the values ​​of the Sab coeffcient for the main thermocouples used:
http://stielec.ac-aix-marseille.fr/cour ... urtemp.htm

or from 0,0055 to 0,051 mV per degree at best!

To obtain a potential difference of 860 mV with the best of these thermocouples (Iron / Copper-Nickel), a temperature of 16 ° C would be required ...

So it seems hard to me to think that the measurement of Alex56 is the fact of a supposed thermocouple ...
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bolt
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by bolt » 29/11/06, 00:19

bob_isat wrote:or from 0,0055 to 0,051 mV per degree at best!

To obtain a potential difference of 860 mV with the best of these thermocouples (Iron / Copper-Nickel), a temperature of 16 ° C would be required ...

So it seems hard to me to think that the measurement of Alex56 is the fact of a supposed thermocouple ...


good evening bob_isat
you're absolutely right,
especially since (I looked at your links, and I learned a little more .... again : Mrgreen: ) as theoretically, as I said, the measurement (supposed to come from a thermocouple) had to move with the T °, ​​or as Alex 56 took it 48 hours after, on the one hand, the measurement (supposed to 'a thermocouple) would necessarily change

and above all, on the other hand, (like a thermocouple as its name suggests is made up of 2 contacts (welds)) 48 hours later, these 2 "welds" were necessarily at the same T °, ​​therefore the same DDP, therefore necessarily = to zero (DDP canceling out)

and even assuming that there is a "series" (several) thermocouple following (from the mass of the vehicle to the copper tube), if everything is at the same T ° we will always have zero

we do not realize this when we take a measurement of T ° with a K probe, there is a solder at the end of the probe, but there is necessarily another (or simple contact) for the electric wire leading the current to the measuring device
and this 2nd weld must be at room temperature

So where does this 860mV come from :?:

if it was a static charge, like a capacitor:
I tried: charge a 4700 microF 50 volt capacitor with a 4,5 V battery
with my 10Mohm impedance multimeter, the voltage drops by 0,1 miliV / sec, if the drop is linear, it would take 45000 seconds to unload the condo (12,5 hours)
but as 36 hours later (device disconnected after charging at 4,5 V) there was no voltage left, it was also draining itself (like the shaking lamps : Evil: ), so I can't say that the voltmeter drops 0,1 mV / sec, so it's less :?
I also tried with the impedance on "1Gohm" available up to 500 mV, but around 250 mV the voltmeter recharges the condo (it goes up instead of down) :x

but a condo of 4700 microF supposes a nice surface of "face to face" and moreover very "close to each other": nothing to do with the insulated copper tube, the mystery is elsewhere : Mrgreen:

I tested a K probe to see:
at 20 ° C: -0,28 mV; -27 microA
at approx. 26 ° C: 0
at 37 ° C: 33mV; 33 microA

so on the same principle that a stirling engine needs a hot source and a cold source

it would be necessary to multiply many in series (and in parallel: or have very wide connections) thermocouples to make a small generator, as follows:
Image

how many "welds" would it take to have something worthwhile :?: : Mrgreen:

is it the same principle as in the subject Peltier-Seebeck effect :?:
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by Other » 29/11/06, 04:26

Hello,
We should start by explaining the old experiences, which consists in winding a small 1,6mm copper pipe around an iron bar and passing steam, or humid air, to see the bar magnetized . It is the same with many ducts of central vacuum system or duct which carries vapors of lubricating oil, (oil mist)
Generate electricity whatever the phenomenon, what needs to be established is the relationship with pants that work and measure electric.
What I noticed in these measurements is that the more we send steam to the engine the more the reading goes up, but if we want the efficiency of the reactor we must not send too much steam, so how to make the link between measuring steam and optimum reactor performance? and what is even more misleading is that a certain amount of steam improves the power of the engine, but not the consumption, and slightly less steam we do not notice anything on the power, but we improve the consumption. All these findings are measured by feeling of driving, (except consumption). But where is the opinion of those who have tested on a bench? with different water consumption.
And I don't think we're going to clear this up with a pant on a car, it's going to take a diesel generator (this is a test bench)
Andre
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bob_isat
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by bob_isat » 29/11/06, 09:19

Andre wrote:What I noticed in these measurements is that the more we send steam to the engine the more the reading goes up, but if we want the efficiency of the reactor we must not send too much steam, so how to make the link between measuring steam and optimum reactor performance?


Is that so?! did you do the same editing as ax56?
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nialabert
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by nialabert » 29/11/06, 10:51

Bolt wrote:
[...]
So where does this 860mV come from :?:

if it was a static charge, like a capacitor:
I tried: charge a 4700 microF 50 volt capacitor with a 4,5 V battery
with my 10Mohm impedance multimeter, the voltage drops by 0,1 miliV / sec, if the drop is linear, it would take 45000 seconds to unload the condo (12,5 hours)
but as 36 hours later (device disconnected after charging at 4,5 V) there was no voltage left, it was also draining itself (like the shaking lamps : Evil: ), so I can't say that the voltmeter drops 0,1 mV / sec, so it's less :?
I also tried with the impedance on "1Gohm" available up to 500 mV, but around 250 mV the voltmeter recharges the condo (it goes up instead of down) :x
[...]


The discharge of a capacitor is not linear, but exponential.
But that doesn't change the problem :|
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by bob_isat » 29/11/06, 13:21

I don't see where the problem is if we make the same observations as Armstrong and Faraday!

-good boiling conditions (high temp, depression) give a more or less charged vapor depending on the ph of the water (the ph of running water is slightly acidic due to the CO2 dissolved in it)

http://perso.orange.fr/quanthommesuite/ ... SATION.pdf


- according to the principle developed in a lot of patents, these ions in gaseous phases fragment the drops of fuel into smaller drops which burn better: we improve the efficiency, we lower consumption

http://perso.orange.fr/quanthommesuite/ ... eureau.htm
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by Other » 29/11/06, 15:27

Hello
bob_isat wrote:
Andre wrote:What I noticed in these measurements is that the more we send steam to the engine the more the reading goes up, but if we want the efficiency of the reactor we must not send too much steam, so how to make the link between measuring steam and optimum reactor performance?


Is that so?! did you do the same editing as ax56?


I did the test at the beginning when you talked about it with just the tip of a spark plug electrode, the signal was weaker, but readable. maximum around 300millivots
For the experience of a thin tube wound around an iron bar, obviously it gives nothing to know that it becomes magnetic, but to know what, which makes it magnetic?
If it is the same rules as the passage of an electric current.

Andre
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by Other » 19/12/06, 02:31

Hello
First rainwater test: 350 millivolts and a few microamps.
With 3 or 4% vinegar in the water we reached 860 MV (almost a volt) and 45 microamps.
Note a bizarre effect: if the engine is stopped when the reactor is in the active phase, the electrification remains in the copper tube. Even 48 hours later there is still the same tensions and also the same intensities !!!


I just cut a reactor outlet tube and insulate with petrol hoses on a Chevrolet petrol engine.
1 cold bubbler test the voltage is between 25 and 30 millivots,
hot bubbler it rises to between 50 and 60 millivolts, the reactor outlet tube and hot I did not measure but we can not touch it without burning.
Engine stops quickly falling to zero.
I am far from 1 volts, but this is a first test that I will re-verify, (I had more than that with a simple probe at the reactor outlet) I did not draw a ground wire on the copper tube not isolated, I took the mass of the vehicle it may be a reason! and I only did 15 km, you have to do km, longer run.

Image
Andre
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