Reduction of the engine brake on a water-doped engine

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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by Other » 25/01/07, 18:02

Hello
Christophe wrote:
PITMIX wrote:But it must be said that on an automatic car and on a flat road it is not really easy to know. : Lol:


No comment...


No on the contrary the subject must be developed
If that makes the engine brake, confirmed by the mountaineers cold reactor we will have to turn to the compression side and try to understand.

False the 300TD is automatic and the observation is clear, with each slowdown for traffic lights and Stop (stop) we realize.

On the forum there are those who try and observe and there are those who analyze ..

I am part of the group that is trying, and I try to find simple explanations for the simple things that I do, not to understand how it works in every detail, but just to know, or I just have to modify the system to improve it ..

Andre
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zac
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by zac » 25/01/07, 18:03

Hello

do not panic it does not prevent rolling.

with the pantone without water the engine brake decreases slightly.

with the beast running, the engine brake drops a little more (one less gear when going down hard).

If I put the acid (vinegar, hydrochloric acid or that I piss in it) the noise of the mill changes very slightly (it is light need the musical ear) the perfs does not change in notable ways but the engine brake decreases enormously . I easily get on slopes at 10/12 percent to take 4000tr and it brakes little; pissed off it forces me to brake it's tiring and then you have to change the pads (2nd fatigue) : Evil:

that the bench does not control it

@+ :P
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by Christophe » 25/01/07, 18:04

When I said without comment is that the testimony of Pitmix can not bring much for purely technical reasons ... That's all ...

It was not at all a bad remark or a reproach ...
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by PITMIX » 25/01/07, 19:53

Do not worry Christophe I understood.
For the engine brake I will have to try to see that.
I didn't really pay attention.
I haven't tried pissing in there yet, but I admit that when Zac told me that, I was laughing.
Not to make fun of me but because I had already thought about it, without daring to do it.
He did not hesitate. :P

It seems to me that when touched the water is more viscous when there is vinegar. What can acidity cause to reduce the engine brake?
The engine brake is directly related to compression, right?
Less engine brake equals less compression ??
How can we associate torque gain and engine brake loss in this case?
It's all strange.
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bolt
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by bolt » 25/01/07, 21:53

Christophe wrote:(the liquid water ends up evaporating in the engine during compression ... and it gains damn in volume by evaporating ... I have more the figure in head should be found but it is several ten many times ...)


at atmospheric pressure it is about 1700 times, therefore less in compression, but at the same time, it requires calories which, therefore, taken from the rest of the gas in compression, prevents it from rising as it wanted in T °
with a doping of 1 L / h (equivalent therefore to 1700 L) on an engine which swallows 170 000 L / h (2,2 L of displacement at 3000 rpm with filling of 0,9), that makes a report of 1 to 100:
doping in volume of water = 1 / 170 of the volume aspirated
doping in volume of evaporated water = 1/100 of the volume aspirated

if the water already enters the gas in the cylinder, it cannot at any time in the compression phase liquefy (condense in water)

if the water enters the cylinder in micro-drops, there is a good chance that it will evaporate before the compression is finished, but if there is a lot of water, it is possible that it '' still evaporates after compression, but at that time, it steals the heat energy of combustion to restore a good part in its expansion (evaporation)
: the balance sheet is always negative by theoretical calculation, but this is without taking into account a possible ionization of this water (ref bob_isat) when it evaporates, and therefore could improve combustion to the point of producing a balance sheet positive of this water injection (would the acidity change this balance :?: )

note that the drop in T ° imposed by the water evaporating in the engine, allows turbo to compress more volume without having the problem of overheating (auto ignition), therefore gaining power per unit displacement

bolt
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by Christophe » 25/01/07, 22:05

PITMIX wrote: What can acidity cause to reduce the engine brake?


Rallalal Pitmix ... another one who has not read JR's summary ... come on, I remind you once again the link: https://www.econologie.com/une-explicati ... -3326.html

PITMIX wrote:The engine brake is directly related to compression, right?
Less engine brake equals less compression ??
How can we associate torque gain and engine brake loss in this case?


It is not only the compression that plays (see my previous message ..) even if it is undoubtedly one of the most important parameter in the engine brake ... For example on a petrol engine there is also the phenomenon of pumping ... and then there is the internal friction + accessory ... In short, the engine brakes are full of things ... And that's why it is very strange that the acidity of the plays on it ... unless ...:?:

PITMIX wrote: It's all strange.


Obviously it's strange, in fact that's why this special subject was created in order to see a little more light (or a less dark it depends ...) ... : Cheesy:
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by camel1 » 25/01/07, 23:03

Hello everyone !

Well, this subject, I have already mentioned it several times, giving my personal explanation, but it seems that it is too simple to be taken seriously, and yet ...

Up to now, 99,99% of water doping has been supplied with steam by more or less large bubblers.
You must now know what I think of these machines, concerning their thermal inertia, which in the case of a variable load regime (car) induces a more or less pronounced phase shift between the production of steam and the engine needs ...

I explain on my site that a car with pantone / bubbler which has just taken a hill sees its steam production being at its maximum at the top, which means that when it attacks a descent just after, it ends up with a engine brake reduced.

The question is: why?

The first thing that comes to mind is that the engine sucks a hot aerosol in its intake, which a priori represents less material (air + steam) than the same volume at a lower temperature.
For example, we know that a turbo is followed by a cooling system intended to improve the boosting of the combustion chamber, therefore the final pressure at TDC, that is to say precisely the opposite of what happens with the pantone downhill.

The second thing, more hypothetical, is that the electrified aerosol (since it is still produced) will always be in conditions allowing it to crack, since there is always a minimum injection of diesel, so a front flame to initiate the reaction, and this gain in engine torque will therefore be given undesirably by the pantone ... : Mrgreen:

These are among other reasons that led me to the idea of ​​GV.

Since there is a request for testimony, and we have the chance, Didier and I, to live in a mountainous region, I will give you two:

Mine first, with the 205. I did not notice any engine brake problem on the descents that I know well, speed between 50 and 90 km / h, third or fourth depending on the case, I do not use more my brake pads as before pantone and I use the same ratios in the same places ...

The case of Didier, with the merco. He indicated to me (and I noted it during our joint trips) that he had a slight and brief loss of engine braking, sometimes accompanied by a fleeting "taking of revolutions" of the engine at the time of declutching (in downshifting ), this phenomenon does not cause any particular gene, except that it has had to modify a little his way of driving, by anticipating this transitory phenomenon.
I say transient, because during a descent, it does not need to apply the brakes more than before, and it also keeps the same reports, under identical conditions.

All this to say that in the case of the engine brake, (for having measured it) the temperature of the mill exhaust gases drops very quickly and very low (up to 70 ° C). Under these conditions, I saw the temperature of the steam, at the outlet of the steam generator drop to 40 ° C, depending on the case.
Therefore, the production of steam falling, the overproduction of the chambers is partially canceled, enough in any case not to harm the engine brake : Cheesy:

It's a bit like the story of the magnetization of the reactor rod, you have to make the distinction between the causes and the consequences, and as regards the engine brake, the GV allows to circumvent the problem (even if the explanations are not the right ones, the facts and the experimentation are there to demonstrate it)

I hope to have been clear,

See you soon

Michel
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by PITMIX » 25/01/07, 23:32

hi Michel
Your theory is obsolete in the case of Zac since it uses a water carburetor. In addition it does not even preheat the water.
If it uses a tube running along the exhaust for 50cm before entering the reactor, like on my cars, there is only the inertia of this small tube to take into account.
Basically no more than your GV which contains liquid water. The GV contains more water than in the post-water carburetor exchanger tube. Therefore ... :?:
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by bolt » 25/01/07, 23:34

a large bubbler takes a long time to heat up at start-up, but once hot it is not a 2 km slope in engine brake that will cool it
so there is always a supply of water vapor,
but the reactor quickly drops from T ° externally (inside the sample tube)
in this case, the attenuated engine brake lasts 2 km, or only 250 meters :?:
in other words (if linked) does the reactor stall before the 2 km :?:

bolt
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by Other » 26/01/07, 02:05

Hello
The case of Didier, with the merco. He indicated to me (and I noted this during our joint trips) that he had a slight and brief loss of engine brake,


We arrive at the same observations on the 300TD in my case I walk with a carburetor which spits in a (mini dry bulb) in the exhaust but of robust construction (stainless steel sheet of 2mm) as well as the reactor also quite massive, therefore at deceleration there is a thermal inertia, but with each deceleration of 500 meters and less it is more like before without pants it gives' impression as if one had increased the deceleration on the injection pump, enough that I had decreased it to verify. and that has not changed anything (it's not the little yellow filling on the target that Mercedes has stuck on that will bug me).

Andre
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