New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)

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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 07/06/18, 09:45

Threatened species would be a separate subject.

As a rule, they are quite specific and foolish environments that must be protected. The Orang utan or the Panda, the Rhinoceros are threatened because their environment is!

In Alsace, the big Hamster is because he no longer finds a crop in maize where he does not find the conditions he needs!

Now, for Ferramol, in fact, when there is a site with one of these gastropods, one should be more careful.

After that, we must always remember that "better" is better than nothing ... So Ferramol better than metaldehyde ... So those who cannot pick up, or do not want to pick up and would treat with metaldehyde, that will be a plus. Without being perfect, we agree ... But gardening (even "natural") is to destroy a natural ecosystem that would be a wasteland, then a climax forest. So it's an assault on a biotope !!! Anyway. Let's be clear.

Each to your sliders, to place it wherever you want. With these infos.
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Moindreffor » 07/06/18, 11:36

Did67 wrote:But gardening (even "natural") is to destroy a natural ecosystem which would be a wasteland, then a climax forest. So it's an assault on a biotope !!! Anyway. Let's be clear.
Each to your sliders, to place it wherever you want. With these infos.

indeed, unless you go back to pick wild plants, when you cultivate you are no longer in the "natural", you can try to move away as little as possible, the choice of the cursor : Mrgreen:
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 07/06/18, 12:38

I mention it in my book: a natural garden is an "anthropized" system ...

Man has never ceased to deviate from a "hunting / gathering" system having a very low "yield": a lot of energy spent in order to harvest very little, in a very random way ... So with mortality high ...

He then domesticated the species (animals, plants), to install them within easy reach, to protect them ... It was the beginning of agriculture. The hazard has reduced. The "yield" has increased. And the population began to grow ... Thousands of years away from pesticides and chemical fertilizers, it was a first intensification. And an "anthropization" - nature began to die.

However, for a long time this remained within the limits that nature could "fix" on its own. So it can be considered "lasting" as long as the damage is not irreversible.

It is this last point which poses problem today ... One destroys irreversibly.

I fear that it is not the "khmer vert-ism" which solves it.
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by to be chafoin » 08/06/18, 11:36

Did67 wrote:I mention it in my book: a natural garden is an "anthropized" system ... Man has constantly moved away from a "hunting / gathering" system with a very low "yield": a lot energy spent to harvest very little, very randomly ... So with high mortality ...
It is a very common progressive view of history and of the Paleolithic (before agriculture). The discussions of contemporary archaeologists on the question of the period preceding the Neolithic era rather evoke an "age of plenty", with humans in good physical health, who could afford to "work" 3 hours a day just to obtain food. completely adapted to human physiology (see paleo diet), and devote the rest of the day to other activities of which we have few traces, but I imagine that they practiced the good use of the deckchair (in plant liana ? : Mrgreen: ). A single figure to be convinced: this period would represent 99,8% of the length of human life. In the Mesolithic (between Paleolithic and Neolithic), men even had abundant game and more than 600 species of edible plants, and in some areas it is assumed that they did not adopt the Neolithic sedentary lifestyle (adopted in other regions at the same time) to avoid precisely the additional energy expenditure required by the social organization of agriculture ...

On the Neolithic period strictly speaking, what you say seems correct to me. Some researchers have wanted to place the beginnings of the Anthropocene at the beginning of agriculture but I believe they are wrong. If the anthropization of the earth begins in a way with the appearance of man (for example the discovery of fire), the almost geological devastating effects of man on the environment begin with industrial revolutions and major transformations. of our Western societies from the end of the 18th century. We can all the same notice that the beginnings of agriculture are the sign of a profound change in the relationship of man to nature and of a first desire for control over living things. And this "revolution" was also followed by (led?) Other more or less harmful creations: the State, social and hierarchical inequalities, war, religion ...

Personally, I am not for a return to the Stone Age, nor for the disappearance of agriculture and the return to hunting / gathering. Imagine picking our food like dinosaurs as you say in your book can, perhaps, make me dream, but I never believed in the hurray-gardening of which I could see the results. This is precisely why I am trying to understand more in depth where the gardener's action lies in an approach "more than organic, without tillage, without fertilizer, without compost, without pesticides". I agree with what you say about idealism, compromise and "better than nothing". In reality, I cannot be satisfied with this kind of observation (the farmer who will put a little less fertilizer than his neighbor will give himself a clear conscience = this is the problem of so-called "reasoned" agriculture) and he There is an interest in going beyond (see your reflection on tillage with grelinette / no tillage). But it's true that everyone has to compromise. Also I have the impression that there are easy amalgamations and false claims of intent. For my part I simply tried to evoke where I was with my questions on the subject. I hear the proportion calculation you give for phosphate. But actually everyone does as they see fit with all the updated information (thanks to these forums for example) and the context of his garden. Mine is small and the compromise I make with bringing hay to my land that attracts slugs is spending more time picking them up and trying to deflect them from my plants than before. You say it worked for you, for me too (I should get away with little or no damage, we'll see). In my context, I therefore consider that I could have done without Ferramol which I used very little as I said, and that this is interesting because it makes me evolve in my approach to the garden.
Did67 wrote:It is this last point which poses problem today ... We destroy in an irreversible way. I fear that it is not the "khmer vert-ism" which solves it.
Can you clarify what you mean by Khmer Green because there are innuendoes that prevent me from understanding the end of your message and perhaps unnecessarily disrupting the discussion?
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by guibnd » 08/06/18, 12:34

to be chafoin wrote: Mine is small and the compromise I make with the hay on my land that attracts slugsis to spend more time picking them up and trying to divert them from my plants than before.

I'm not ok with the link you make between hay and slug presence. Slugs swarm some years, other years a little less ... with or without hay.

I do not know how many years of hindsight you have in gardening, but me, I have 49 years, I garden since at least 40 years, if so child, I had my little corner of salad, tomato, strawberries ... next to the family garden of my father and my older brother, I planted in my room on the edge of my window ... : Mrgreen: in short, it's in my dna
Well, I've always heard about slugs for ages, with calamitous years, and yet at the time of my father, no hay in the kitchen garden!

it is the 2ème year that I foine and, slugs side, it's not worse than before when I was gardening bare ground!
I remember horrible years - without hay - where slugs ate even onions and shallots !!!
hence my habit of sowing more than necessary and transplant gradually not to eat all my plants at the beginning, there is always a time when they decline and then the seedlings have time to strengthen , grow up and no longer interest them because probably less tender
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Twandering with clayey and fertile wheat, full of water in winter, cold in spring, crushed and cracked in summer,
but that was before the Didite ...
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Moindreffor » 08/06/18, 21:51

Guibnd wrote:
to be chafoin wrote: Mine is small and the compromise I make with the hay on my land that attracts slugsis to spend more time picking them up and trying to divert them from my plants than before.

I'm not ok with the link you make between hay and slug presence. Slugs swarm some years, other years a little less ... with or without hay.

I do not know how many years of hindsight you have in gardening, but me, I have 49 years, I garden since at least 40 years, if so child, I had my little corner of salad, tomato, strawberries ... next to the family garden of my father and my older brother, I planted in my room on the edge of my window ... : Mrgreen: in short, it's in my dna
Well, I've always heard about slugs for ages, with calamitous years, and yet at the time of my father, no hay in the kitchen garden!

it is the 2ème year that I foine and, slugs side, it's not worse than before when I was gardening bare ground!
I remember horrible years - without hay - where slugs ate even onions and shallots !!!
hence my habit of sowing more than necessary and transplant gradually not to eat all my plants at the beginning, there is always a time when they decline and then the seedlings have time to strengthen , grow up and no longer interest them because probably less tender

same experience, not so much push in my youth,
but this year, I put ferramol and no more attacks of slugs, last year I was skeptical about the use of this product (especially considering its price) because not very effective, fewer attacks but still present and last year I was not in "real" phenoculture, there I have the dose of hay, in the 10 cm mini up to 20 cm after 3 months of establishment and settlement
so between pickup and ferramol, I see more a difference in price between buying a product that for me is not harmful and give of his person, after the ferramol is present h24, nothing says that after the pickup, another wave slugs do not come out
as I have a small garden and I do not control all seedlings yet, I buy seedlings and so I am more on the h24 line protection, because if I lose a plant I have to buy another, but when my control of sowing will be better I can change tactics
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by to be chafoin » 09/06/18, 08:02

Guibnd wrote:I'm not ok with the link you make between hay and slug presence. Slugs swarm some years, other years a little less ... with or without hay. I do not know how many years of hindsight you have in gardening, ...
I think yes there is a good chance that under a mulch there will be more slugs. We often talk about "board and lodging". Of course there is always the possibility of slug invasions, I had some before mulching and I already had to fight against them, but here it is all the growing conditions that play a role. Of course these are only guesses but there is a body of reasonable clues:
no tillage : Arrow: no disturbance of slugs and their hidden eggs under the ground
pailli : Arrow: protection against the sun and humidity (+ food?)
composting : Arrow: food
These are just a few elements and there are certainly some offsetting effects (shelter for slug predators like the carabids that I see under the mulch) but if I have the discussions I see that this topic is coming back.
I do not garden since 5 years and it is my 2ème year of mulching so actually it is weak to pronounce (here Didier or a person practicing this kind of gardening for a long time could make a statement).
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by to be chafoin » 09/06/18, 08:04

Moindreffor wrote:after the ferramol is present h24, nothing says that after the collection, another wave of slugs does not come out
as I have a small garden and I do not control all seedlings yet, I buy seedlings and so I am more on the h24 line protection, because if I lose a plant I have to buy another, but when my control of sowing will be better I can change tactics

This is sure, especially since some slugs feed at once and others in several times.
I also buy a large majority of my plants and it is true that suddenly it is also a financial challenge ...
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 09/06/18, 09:11

to be chafoin wrote:
It is a very common progressive view of history and of the Paleolithic (before agriculture). The discussions of contemporary archaeologists on the question of the period preceding the Neolithic era rather evoke an "age of plenty", with humans in good physical health, who could afford to "work" 3 hours a day just to obtain food. completely adapted to human physiology (see paleo diet), and devote the rest of the day to other activities of which we have few traces, but I imagine that they practiced the good use of the deckchair (in plant liana ? : Mrgreen: ). A single figure to be convinced: this period would represent 99,8% of the length of human life. In the Mesolithic (between Paleolithic and Neolithic), men even had abundant game and more than 600 species of edible plants, and in some areas it is assumed that they did not adopt the Neolithic sedentary lifestyle (adopted in other regions at the same time) to avoid precisely the additional energy expenditure required by the social organization of agriculture.



I am not a specialist in archeology at all. On the other hand, I studied "The history of agriculture in the world", by Marcel Mazoyer (successor to René Dumont at the chair of comparative agriculture at INA Paris-Grignon).

And indeed, I may peddle erroneous ideas, as others peddle the idea that "tillage is essential".

Nevertheless, if the "hunt-gather system" was overall superior, why would man have it very widely [there are still some populations of hunter-gatherers], in almost all regions of the world, replaced by a system much more anthropized, called "agriculture" ???

And to imply that it is really con (what I happen to think!), Why then the populations would have grown, if the system is less efficient ???

That there are other reasons that limit populations, at specific times (diseases, etc ...), I agree. In the very long term, the human species, like the majority of species, seems to base its population on the resources of its ecological niche (place, source of energy). Very exactly on the "minimum peaks" (famines) ...
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 09/06/18, 09:19

to be chafoin wrote:
Did67 wrote:It is this last point which poses problem today ... We destroy in an irreversible way. I fear that it is not the "khmer vert-ism" which solves it.
Can you clarify what you mean by Khmer Green because there are innuendoes that prevent me from understanding the end of your message and perhaps unnecessarily disrupting the discussion?


1) Those who have followed me for a long time know that my answers are meant "general reflection", and not "attack on the person to whom I am responding". In short, what you write brings me to developments that are broader than just "you" answering ...

There, one was typically in a broad reflection - not a personal attack.

2) I call "Green Khmer" the supporters of a form of ideology without nuance of ecology, seen more as a policy than as a science. Often unable to accept that human activity (or here "anthropization") necessarily distorts ... All that is not "ideal" is rejected, criticized, fought ... [Often at the cost of contradictions, linked to their own scale of values ​​- the Green Khmer, for example, will criticize conventional agriculture, but maintain a magnificent lawn regularly mowed, without realizing that it turns their lawn into a golf course without playing golf, and an organic desert where they could let the living "breathe" a little, at the cost of a very useful fuel consumption, and with a noise that by others, they fight when it comes to trucks, which transport the goods that 'they buy in "bobos" stores - where the "organic" pears from Chile did not come by donkey cart!]
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