Electronuclear flexibility (excluding subject wind)

[sicetaitsimple]

Normally, thermal energy from plants of the same name (whether nuclear or not) should cost much less than Groningen gas, since unlike the latter, it is fatal energy (without play words!), so dispelled anyway.

Certainly yes.

One of the explanations is certainly due to the fact that even if the heat is made available free of charge, the electricity producer can never undertake to ensure its availability at all times (shutdown for breakdown or maintenance of the plant) and that the The horticulturalist will therefore have to install a back-up and take out an expensive "emergency" gas contract.

In addition, but here I don't know, nothing says that in the Netherlands there are no cogeneration electricity purchase tariffs for greenhouse growers at price levels that allow them to consider the heat. recovered as "fatal" heat, gas costs being offset by income from the sale of electricity. It would therefore be the electricity consumer who would indirectly subsidize greenhouse growers, these are things that can happen!

[Did67]

1) I agree: a "complete" sector is a very complex thing ... And yes, the Dutch are champions when it comes to trade - marine tradition, Protestant tradition ... Don for languages ​​(who has worked with Dutch knows this). Not only, in fact, for horticultural products (even if they are the world specialists there).

2) Certainly. But the fact remains that we have not been able to seize opportunities. No one will take my mind off that we could not have used the fatal heat of power plants (in part) ... But we did not care! Yes, we needed back-ups. But in greenhouses, it is, given the surfaces, consumption that weighs on prices. Not an oil-fired boiler to amortize! It turns out, ironically, that the maintenance of the power plants is mostly scheduled ... in summer!

3) Yes, it's the pyralene whose name played on my early Alzheimer's (well, early, so to speak; not that much; I would still like to be young while in a month, I am celebrating my 65 km on the odometer ...).

[Did67]

there are no cogeneration electricity purchase tariffs for greenhouse growers at price levels that allow them to consider the recovered heat as "fatal" heat, the gas costs being offset by the revenue from the sale of electricity. It would therefore be the electricity consumer who indirectly subsidizes greenhouse growers, these are things that can happen!

Likely.

Like many countries. This led Okofen to develop a pellet boiler with Stirling, starting from the observation that it is in winter when it is necessary to heat that the electrical network is the most in tension.

[I do not know what happened - I dropped the issue of pellet boilers a bit; coincidence, mine will celebrate its 10th anniversary tomorrow since the start-up! -, even at home, the additional cost being high taking into account the additional cost of the Stirling, for a low power: of memory 1 or 2 electric kw for a dozen thermal].

[Checking done, they persevere on medium power installations: 40 to 50 kW thermal / 4 to 5 kW electric: http://www.okofen-e.com/de/pellematic_e_max/]

[sicetaitsimple]

It would therefore be the electricity consumer who would indirectly subsidize greenhouse growers, these are things that can happen!

For example, in France for 2017, gas cogeneration plants (mainly Norwegian and Russian) under purchase tariff saw their electricity production purchased € 659M, for an average unit cost of € 125,7 / MWh, i.e. around 3 times the price middle market.

It is therefore more than 400M € that electricity consumers have paid "voluntarily" to cogenerators.

See chapter 2.1.1.1 of appendix 1 of the link:

http://www.cre.fr/documents/deliberatio ... /cspe-2017

I have not yet fully understood the value of indirectly subsidizing the purchase of gas ...

[Bardal]

Yes, me neither ... But in these stories of purchase prices and subsidies from the Grenelle, there are so many things that I do not understand ...

[Did67]

You know the subject too well not to play the ass ...

1) I think that gas turbines do not turn when electricity is plentiful so cheap ... As flexible sources, they come into action when the system is energized. I'm not sure the price that would apply would be the "average price"?

2) We subsidize the use of waste heat, which costs, replaces the production of heat from fossil fuels (mainly). You wrote it yourself above: you need a "back-up", so it is not certain that this use would be "profitable" otherwise.

3) This represents a not insignificant part of the CSPE, which is not intended only for RE (as many believe). Even if the development of these "weighed down" the bill and contributed to regular increases (this is not to deny).

The right question is who should pay for it?

Alas, the habit has long been taken to "divert" taxes from their original use: the sticker was not used for long to finance "the old", as the TIPP no longer finances the highways and not even the maintenance of roads, etc ...

[Note all the same that the CSPE or TIPP type taxes are much more difficult to "exempt" from tax in tax havens, in comparison to other forms of taxation: taxes on profits - it suffices to relocate the profits - , wealth taxes, income taxes, etc ...]

[sicetaitsimple]

You know the subject too well not to play the ass ...

I do not play the ass .....

As an electricity consumer, I have no problem contributing (within reason) to the development of renewable electric energies.

Not really for electricity produced from imported gas, which, you can easily check on eco2mix, is useless since January 2500st (permanent tape of about XNUMXMW) because we are always exporters at a higher height.

So we import gas, we emit CO2, and it costs us (collectively) around € 80 / MWh produced in addition to what it's actually worth. A real deal!

[Did67]

It is only cogeneration that is subsidized. Motivated by what I wrote: recovery of fatal heat (therefore helping to enable what operators would not do spontaneously, since it would not be profitable to build a heat network, to set up a back-up up, etc ...). It replaces heat from the combustion of fossil fuels. So overall, improves the C.

On the anaerobic digestion unit, there is also a "bonus" of one or two cents per kWh, if at least 50% of the heat is recovered (all these figures from memory; since I retired, it's crazy how fast I forget!). So it is worth negotiating with a neighbor, installing exchangers, pipes, etc ...

Afterwards, is it effective? This is the whole - eternal - question of subsidies and their relevance. [in this case, it must be; the real question isn't: isn't it just opportunism - wouldn't the plans have come true anyway? The question is the difficulty for enarques, not to create "bubbles", like that of the PV: by the time the decrees are out, the prices are halved, and the operators have made golden balls!]

[sicetaitsimple]

It replaces heat from the combustion of fossil fuels. So overall, improves the C.

This is what is completely false, and which confuses the debate on gas cogeneration: a gas boiler has an efficiency at least as good, or even better than a gas cogeneration, costs much less and is much more reliable. If the need is for warmth, this is (collectively) the best choice. The heat which arrives at the inlet of the boiler of a cogeneration is neither free nor "free" of CO2.

There is no "free lunch" in a gas cogeneration such as those which are currently delivering their 2500MW on the network, there are just some who pay for the meals of others.

Then we do what we want: what I'm saying is simply that it makes me "c .. r" if the fuel is imported gas.

My opinion will be different (or at least more nuanced!) If it is biomass.

[sicetaitsimple]

And as the subject is flexibility and I would not want to be scolded again by Remundo, note the exceptional flexibility of these gas cogenerations:

- almost nothing, before October 30.
- it starts on 31/10, to check that everything is going well, the prices starting on 1/11.
- it works fully until 31/03, the date when the rates stop, whatever the electricity needs between 1/11 and 31/03.
- and it starts again the following year.

The whole being of course verifiable by everyone on ECO2MIX.