Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?

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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Lolounette » 18/11/17, 23:02

good bin I have the solution: must move into a water tower and put wind turbines on the roof! : Mrgreen:

Otherwise it was a stupid idea, that's what I said to myself : Lol:
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by izentrop » 19/11/17, 02:05

bardal wrote:a fall of 2,6m really constitutes the lower limit of a waterfall for nano-power plants;
We can do less with an Archimedes screw, in addition it does not hurt the fish;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjxBV8gJO6E
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Lolounette » 19/11/17, 11:29

It is true that the archimede screw works in 2 directions so is very interesting both to raise the water and generate electricity on the descent ... or then put 2, one for the rise coupled to the wind turbine and one for the descent. But the fact remains that the volume of the basins and the water flow are obviously limiting for domestic use ...

Can it be envisaged in the case of large, steep slopes? but the rest of the time is complicated!
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Grelinette » 19/11/17, 12:14

Lolounette wrote:Otherwise it was a stupid idea, that's what I said to myself : Lol:

Not as stupid as that because it depends on a lot of parameters that change over time or that relate to local criteria that are not always taken into account.

That said, I am still puzzled at the determining criterion of yield which determines whether we act or not.
For example, in certain regions wind or solar do not have a good yield, suddenly we do nothing. I think little is better than nothing, with certainly the essential parameter of the investment cost compared to the expected benefits. But it is also, in my opinion, a question of the level of consideration of indirect or even unknown (or poorly evaluated) costs at a given time.

To take the example of my PACA region (known for its drought and its mistral): for a few weeks the municipalities have been making a very big communication to encourage preventive clearing by explaining that the current fires taking into account climate change (more drought , more wind) are almost unmanageable with the technical means of the firefighters: only a radical clearing could have saved the hundreds of homes, buildings, electrical networks and telephone that burned in recent years, not to mention the thousands of hectares of wood and fields gone up in smoke. The direct and indirect costs are incalculable.

But we could also have installed large water tanks, with a small wind turbine as you suggest, close to urbanized areas (fire safety + local electrical production), especially since large water tanks are already installed. more than 150 m3 (flexible cover) in the massifs.
fire1.jpg
endie1.jpg (9.8 KiB) Consulted 7972 times

In addition, these tanks can be filled with rainwater ... even if some say that in Provence the rainwater is too weak to hope to store large quantities! ... At my place, there is a tank of nearly 300 m3 which is only filled with around 150 m2 of roof, and for several years with very punctual downpours and very localized rains, this tank is completely filled and systematically overflows in a few days, to the surprise of all in particular specialists).

In short, your idea is not to throw in the basket but to dig! : Cheesy:
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by moinsdewatt » 19/11/17, 14:03

Lolounette wrote:.....

Otherwise it was a stupid idea, that's what I said to myself : Lol:


Not completely stupid in fact. : Idea:
I post here what I had posted in another forum one year ago.
Obviously as mentioned in the posts above you need big elevations (not a water tower in the garden) and very large volumes.

The Germans are trying:

A new concept of energy storage for wind energy.
Coupling what I will call micro-STEP with a fleet of 4 wind turbines.
It will be done in Germany, with General Electric as an industrialist.
The water will be turbined 180 m lower in a valley (600 feet).
The water tanks at heights will be at the foot of each windmill at approximately 38 000 m3 water (10.6 million gallons).
Should be operational late 2018



This Unique Combo Of Wind And Power Hydro Could Revolutionize Renewable Energy

Oct 16, 2016 by Tobey Grumet

Wind is a clean, but it's also fickle. You can not be sure the wind will blow. But engineers in Europe have found a way to crack this shortcoming by combining it with hydropower. The big idea here is that it will wind up, windy, and the water will act as a giant battery that will discharge and modulate when it stops blowing.

The German firm Max Boegl Wind AG approached GE Renewable Energy to collaborate on the first wind farm with an integrated hydropower plant in March. The four-turbine pilot project will be connected to the grid by the end of 2017, and the hydropower plant should be operational by the end of 2018.

These will be ordinary wind turbines. They will be the world's tallest, standing 584 feet high when the blade is pointing straight up. The base of the turbines-the bottom 131 feet-will double tank holding 1.6 million gallons of water, and the turbine will hold an additional holding tank an additional 9 million gallons.

The setup essentially works as a hydro pump station (see image above). When electricity is needed, water flowing downhill from the reservoirs will power the hydro plant. When the energy supply is high, the hydro plant will pump up the hill to the reservoirs and will act as the giant battery. The hydro plant will benefit from this arbitration, while making the most of the price. The combination of the two power sources (which will work in parallel to each other) will ensure that electricity is always flowing from the plant.

For it to work, the wind turbines must sit at the top of a hill, and there must be a room in the valley for a man-made lake - in this case 600 being used by the turbines.

The Swabian-Franconian Forest, in Germany, proved the perfect location. Built into the hills will be a hydroelectric plant capable of producing 16 megawatts of power, while the wind farm will produce 13.6 megawatts.

The team behind the farms says the innovative design provides a fast increase in output, allowing the hydro plant to react immediately to fluctuations in the German energy market. "Germans in this area are known as tinkerers and inventors," says Cliff Harris, general manager for onshore wind in EMEA at GE Renewable Energy. "So the mentality of this technology really fits the population."

........................

http://www.gereports.com/unique-combo-w ... le-energy/

there are interesting illustrations in the link but too big to enter here.


see also http://www.evwind.es/2016/11/03/germany ... ines/57807

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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Grelinette » 19/11/17, 15:35

moinsdewatt wrote:Obviously as mentioned in the posts above you need big elevations (not a water tower in the garden) and very large volumes.

If there is no elevation, perhaps it is possible to dig large wells under the wind turbines! (definitely I like to make deep holes in the ground! : Cheesy:)

Otherwise I recently saw a TV report on an energy storage project in the form of compressed air in spherical tanks. (found on the net: http://www.bulletin.ch/fr/news-detail/s ... ergie.html).
I no longer know if it is in the same report but I also saw a storage project in large spherical reinforced concrete tanks!

It is surprising all these large-scale projects which however seem to oppose the basic rules of ... profitability!

(This is the image of this project which we talked about a lot on econology which consists in storing energy in the form of large wagons weighted with large concrete masses and which are mounted at the top of a hill, the energy being recovered when the wagon goes back down on the rails, or this other or the energy is stored in a heavy cylindrical mass rotating at high speed ... We seek, we invent, we test, and maybe we will eventually find a simple and ... profitable means of storage!).
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Lolounette » 19/11/17, 17:16

it seems to me that while looking for a mass to move the water is still the one that is the least polluting and the easiest to find!
thank you in any case for your very interesting feedback ... : Wink:
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by dirk pitt » 19/11/17, 19:06

the fairy electricity has this important characteristic of being transported over great distances with very little loss.
therefore no need to have storage close to the place of production.
wind turbines can be in Brittany (where there is wind) and storage in the Alps (where there are high dams)

an interesting solution of large capacity STEP is exhausted mines (of coal for example)
in the Rurh, there is a STEP project of around 1Gwh in the form of a capacity of 1 million m3 of water pumped between the surface (lake) and the galleries at 1300m deep.
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by Meszigues3 » 19/11/17, 23:16

dirk pitt wrote:an interesting solution of large capacity STEP is exhausted mines (of coal for example)
in the Rurh, there is a STEP project of around 1Gwh in the form of a capacity of 1 million m3 of water pumped between the surface (lake) and the galleries at 1300m deep.
In France in winter the power demand on the network is frequently higher than 60 GW, either 60 GWh / h or 1 GWh per minute.
The WWTP of the Ruhr would hold a minute of consumption in France.

Twenty dams in France are more than 100 million m3 (Serre-Ponçon 1200 million m3).

Just to give the proportions, that does not mean that the project is not profitable, especially in Germany.
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Re: Storage of wind energy without battery: possible?




by izentrop » 20/11/17, 00:10

Grelinette wrote:Otherwise I recently saw a TV report on an energy storage project in the form of compressed air in spherical tanks. (found on the net: http://www.bulletin.ch/fr/news-detail/s ... energy.html).
Interesting the table giving the gray energy consumed in Mj to make a storage of 1 Mj
Image
The ones that do best are not necessarily the ones that last the longest.

Volume energy density of different storage methods:
Image
It seems to me that there is a reversal between the density of compressed air at 100 and 600 m?
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