The work is finished! (Eco angle France2)

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eclectron
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Re: Work is over! (The eco angle, France2)




by eclectron » 31/10/16, 09:31

izentrop wrote:
Ahmed wrote:The logic of automation is the exclusion of humanity

Your metaphysics is beyond me.
...

I can see the bottom of your thoughts, but isn't that "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"?

The logic of automation is profit, sometimes survival of the company in global competition.
This results in the exclusion of humans effectively, on spots that are not necessarily pleasant and rewarding.
is it wrong?
In my opinion, no.

If we continue this trend, there will only be one more rewarding task entrusted to humans.
Pushing to the extreme, humans will have nothing more to do to ensure their production / recycling of goods and services.
is it not a dream to be free from material contingencies?

This is what all Loto players aspire to, the good life without constraint.
Basically we all have this aspiration within us.
The problem is that currently the right to live is conditioned by income, itself conditioned by work.
There is a problem with the automation experienced like today!
A problem that can be resolved in 2 seconds, if "we" decide, but "we" do not seem decided to separate the right to live, from work.
However, this is what automation is leading us to, despite itself
(this is not its primary purpose, the primary purpose of automation being financial profit or survival in ... financial competition.
Moreover, "finance", everything that revolves around money, being an abstraction and not a physical quantity.
We don't do what we want with physics, with an abstraction, you have to see ...)

Until we make up our minds, the economic transition does not take place and is very painful for those excluded from work, and often even included.

Afterwards we will ask the metaphysical questions of the meaning of life more cruelly.
is this bad?
in my opinion, no! : Wink:
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Re: Work is over! (The eco angle, France2)




by Ahmed » 31/10/16, 19:38

The obvious logic of automation is the exclusion of humans, which has two consequences:
a) a drop in profits per unit of product, which leads to the need to produce more, which in turn leads to increased destruction of natural wealth (negative externalities).
b) a decrease in the standard of living of the mass of people who are expelled from employment, hence an increasing difficulty in disposing of the manufactured products in addition to the fact of a): this is what is called the contradiction internal economy capitalism and it is an unsurpassable terminal ...
Of course, this can remove painful, dangerous tasks (in favor of unemployment) but that is not why the decisions that lead to it are made and it is never for the good of others than those of investors.
These considerations apply only within the framework of economism, but it is only one stage which leads (at least logically, because nothing makes it possible to be certain that this logic will not run up against some insurmountable obstacle ) to a world completely incompatible physically * with the survival of non-technological beings (if I dare this confusion!).
Transhumanism is a magnificent example of this encroachment of technology within its physical integrity and its ultimate outcome is none other than the total dissolution of humans into a technological entity.

You write:
Afterwards we will ask the metaphysical questions of the meaning of life more cruelly.
No, it is today that they arise, otherwise it is to recognize that it is enough to abandon ourselves to the determinisms that govern us ...

* After the human becomes useless to the system, which restores the validity of the destruction of the conditions of the perpetuation of life.
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Re: Work is over! (The eco angle, France2)




by eclectron » 31/10/16, 22:24

Ahmed wrote:The obvious logic of automation is the exclusion of humans, which has two consequences


the cause of automation is the seeking profit or maintaining competitiveness by the exclusion of human wages, which in fact results in the exclusion of humans.
The engine is the profit not exclusion, which is the consequence.
as proof, to remain competitive, companies have the choice, either to automate here, or to relocate in a country with low labor costs without automating themselves and in the end for "choice" to automate in a country with low labor costs.


Ahmed wrote::
Afterwards, the metaphysical questions of the meaning of life will be asked more cruelly.
No, it is today that they arise, otherwise it is to recognize that it is enough to abandon ourselves to the determinisms that govern us ...

each word has its importance. "more" means that this question is already being asked today, but when men are 100% free from material contingencies, if it ever happens, this question of the meaning of life will inevitably jump to them. the figure.
Today, everyone can take refuge in work to avoid this question.
Today few are interested in this subject, taken by the material contingencies that they are.

It does not seem to me to have advocated abandonment "to the determinisms that govern us" but you are allowed to think that I am, although I am not : Wink:
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Re: Work is over! (The eco angle, France2)




by Ahmed » 31/10/16, 22:47

When I evoke "the obvious logic of automation" I am not speaking of the cause which is at its origin, but of a logic which is internal to this process and ignored by the agents who implement it for their own reason. ... (which you describe very well). That is to say, that beyond the economic reasons which push to the automation, there is something else which is activated, or, one could say, activating ... Like this nematode which colonizes the brain of this small rodent (?) and pushes it to drown, because it needs an aquatic phase to reproduce ...
The purpose of automation is in no way "a release from material contingencies", since: a) it is not its direct cause; b) work continues to be the basis of our society (as it strives to destroy it), but depriving people of jobs is not a liberation from economism ...; c) the deployment of an ever more aggressive extractivism destroys the possibilities of a peaceful life ...

Last point, I never accused you of having a weakness for determinisms, I simply noted that we cannot do without good questions (even and especially because the alienations that you cite dissuade us from it) , except to give up the little freedom possible (simple question of logic).
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Re: Work is over! (The eco angle, France2)




by The shadow » 03/11/16, 16:34

Hello to Members : Idea:
For my part I see in automation many positive points
Safety in dangerous areas, nuclear, arduous work, reducing repetitive tasks, in surgeries, various controls (without the possibility of depositing an envelope) in many sectors :D
This empowerment does not date from the 2000s, but for 8000 years by using water, animals (oxen, horses, donkeys) then to go hunting (dogs, ferrets, hawks, eagles, etc.) reduce pests in homes with cats (genet)
It's in our genes to want to control everything automatically
There is no shortage of examples in these times : Twisted:
The last good ENGLISH November 1, 2016 in silence : Arrowd:
it's here and now
Good day to all : Oops:
PS it's automatic : Cheesy:
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Re: Work is over! (The eco angle, France2)




by Ahmed » 03/11/16, 20:30

Technology and technology should not be confused. Technology is the implementation of sophisticated techniques articulated with each other and which, therefore, offers multiplied potentialities of action (in this case destruction * of nature). Taking technology back to 8000 years is a pleasant joke and only a rear projection of our current practices can explain this revealing anachronism ...
A big difference between these two realities is the purpose which has been radically reversed (even if this reversal is a little prior to technology, it would not be what it is without its enormous amplification effect and, in particular, would not present this danger of empowerment.

* not to mention the destruction of our critical sense vis-à-vis this same technology that feeds back on us, to better abuse us ...
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Re: Work is over! (The eco angle, France2)




by The shadow » 03/11/16, 22:11

Ahmed wrote:Technology and technology should not be confused. Technology is the implementation of sophisticated techniques articulated with each other and which, therefore, offers multiplied potentialities of action (in this case destruction * of nature). Taking technology back to 8000 years is a pleasant joke and only a rear projection of our current practices can explain this revealing anachronism ...
A big difference between these two realities is the purpose which has been radically reversed (even if this reversal is a little prior to technology, it would not be what it is without its enormous amplification effect and, in particular, would not present this danger of empowerment.

* not to mention the destruction of our critical sense vis-à-vis this same technology that feeds back on us, to better abuse us ...

One does not go without the other is to link some is the way to take it
Because the history of the human species is above all the technique that generates automatisms
You will have a hard time demonstrating the opposite : Mrgreen:
I leave your analysis (to which whole sections are missing)
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Re: Work is over! (The eco angle, France2)




by Ahmed » 03/11/16, 22:29

There is a certain continuity if we consider the increasing complexity, it is obvious, but what is significant, is that at a certain degree a qualitative change takes place: the technique prolongs the being (human , but not only); technology is much more ambiguous in nature: apparently it offers much more, but it is to better use humans and it goes so far as to colonize their psyche to enslave them to its logic.
Which "whole sections" would be missing?
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Re: Work is over! (The eco angle, France2)




by The shadow » 04/11/16, 02:24

Ahmed wrote:There is a certain continuity if we consider the increasing complexity, it is obvious, but what is significant, is that at a certain degree a qualitative change takes place: the technique prolongs the being (human , but not only); technology is much more ambiguous in nature: apparently it offers much more, but it is to better use humans and it goes so far as to colonize their psyche to enslave them to its logic.
Which "whole sections" would be missing?

But you forget that nature is complex and not devoid of technique to achieve these ends, it is not only human "the technique" just a word to use to put in it certain manipulations which go in the direction of the effectiveness
Example in quantity in the biotope : Idea:
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Re: Work is over! (The eco angle, France2)




by Janic » 04/11/16, 08:40

hello shadow
But you forget that nature is complex and not devoid of technique to achieve these ends, it is not only human "the technique" just a word to use to put in it certain manipulations which go in the direction of the effectiveness
we can actually call it technique. What differs the natural environment from that which humanity has made (some in it) is that nature develops survival techniques while that of humans finds only an extremely reduced place.
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