Pantone project G + BMW E36 TDS: Motor M51

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jrneco
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Re: Project G + Pantone BMW E36 TDS: Motor M51




by jrneco » 18/07/16, 18:58

Flytox hi, hi company, hello everyone.
The project bmw e36 325tds revients finally that's it I finally put myself (finally? Yes yes !!!! I hear qq few that may have followed the project who wonders what became of it) but here is the question may not be posting in the right place, but I need your wisdom guys (and chicks, for that matter for the expression argo), let me explain.

I said or I do not know, but I have the opportunity to work on my pantone bm td with a mechanic and a good friend, I finally widely promise you.
the downside is that when I explain that theoretically the Pantone system requires minimum 500 ° Celsius to function properly and produce the famous hydro gas that will inject into the engine (for short) and thus improve the unburnt, the conso and down thereby pollution (certe it is verified), he explains that at the output of the turbo, at most there are only qq hundred degree but far from the 450 500- or better the 700 - 900 degree that one would need.

my question is, how our guys pantone systems can function properly while we are far from having the desired temperature! ..?

My buddy reply to me that the only limit (for example) its super 5 GT turbo therefore, it really warmed while red is yes you could have what it seems necessary to the theory of Paul Pantone.

for indeed, in the state, and it's true, what one gets is a kind of fap.

I deck, tools, tig, a little experience, time, desire, the car, but will I end up with a system that will walk my imagination than a reality that would make me win a real argument facing Anne hidalgo Mayor of Paris and its bloody law that bans all cars before 97.

Or I'll have to sell my bm at a loss, so I just put almost 2000 balls to remake and throw my project into the drink for disclaimer scientific reality? !!!!

Chui's ready to ride it, but not for loquats? See what I mean? ....
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Re: Project G + Pantone BMW E36 TDS: Motor M51




by Flytox » 18/07/16, 22:29

Hi jrneco

jrneco wrote:.... Theoretically the Pantone system requires minimum 500 ° Celsius to function properly and produce the famous hydro gas that will inject into the engine (for short) and thus improve the imbruler, power consumption and lower thereby pollution (certe it is verified), he explains that at the output of the turbo, at most there are only qq hundred degree but far from the best 450- 500 or 700 - 900 degree that one would need.


In "pure" Pantone a very high temperature helps more effectively to crack the molecules of liquid hydrocarbon into lighter gas. In Gillier Pantone we adapt to less temperature (in the 300 ° C cruising at 90 km / h) and it also works, but only on water (not necessarily cracked by the way). In fact, for my part, I never managed to define if there was an ideal / minimum or maximum temperature for this to work. In fact under, say 250 ° C, it doesn't work anymore and the reactor drowns very easily, but I cannot say if it is only a problem of insufficient temperature or a problem of flow / vapor pressure or them. of them...

I deck, tools, tig, a little experience, time, desire, the car, but will I end up with a system that will walk my imagination than a reality that would make me win a real argument facing Anne hidalgo Mayor of Paris and its bloody law that bans all cars before 97.

Even if it means making "bizarre" laws, a pity that it does not make an equivalent with heating appliances? History of quarreling definitively with his voters? : Mrgreen:

Or I'll have to sell my bm at a loss, so I just put almost 2000 balls to remake and throw my project into the drink for disclaimer scientific reality? !!!!

Chui's ready to ride it, but not for loquats? See what I mean? ....


Not better, I stopped my R19, they no longer want the Technical Control .... :frown:

montages injection water / doping-a-la-steam-and-water-t3270 1250.html
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Re: Project G + Pantone BMW E36 TDS: Motor M51




by jrneco » 19/07/16, 10:31

hi all, hi Flytox,

to shorten it :
1er: I do

2ème: I have found a probe to take the actual temperature at the outlet of the turbo: Trends!

3rd: if I add a reactor in the 1st exhaust outlet just after the turbo (since there is one) this may interfere with the catamaran and the computer, because this "foreign" body not provided for in the calculations initials of the constructor, will modify two things:

- The temperature will be changed as I said, or even cool exhaust gases and therefore probably interfere various paramêtres ...
- The exhaust flow will also be disturbed, because the reactor is at the ready of the output of the exhaust manifold / turbo, this entails in extentio new parameters.

But hey, it certainly is relative is not on the F1 or scientific or military requirements.

The proposition of my mechanic friend that we will call "super mystery mechanic" is SMM, here it is done, therefore SMM proposes to me to compensate for this temperature difference with the addition of a resistance to go back to the ideal temperatures. ..

Only the interest of the Pantone system (generally Gillier or not), it is precisely to use thermal heat (60% theoretical !!) recovered or rather, to vapocracker water hydro (and caboodle) for power injected and the engine (....). If so make a HHO generator, which amounts to another to use electricity from the alternator, which in itself amounts to consume slightly more fuel (without going into a sterile and pointless controversy here ...).

I'll ask SMM, which probe can I use to know the temp out turbo (particularly) but if there are suggestions I'm interested.
The reminder of the difference between pure Pantone and Gillier Pantone (I call Pantone G +), do not require the same temperature requirements, so you allude that do not create the same gases (qq kinds, forgiveness for the vulgate), I did not know, or rather you put lights on aspects that I had not considered ...

About R19: is it about the law of hildago sur Paname ?! Because indeed, why not rather have to respect the Euro standards (5-6 etc) that the UTAC and the European harmonization is doing, consequence on the CT (besides SMM is pure controller), which precisely recall all the inconsistency of this bureaucratic, hyprocritical and above all unfair law: indeed there are vehicles after 1997 which pollute more than some before: there are still TDs after 97 in catalysis pollutes more than some from before (sold on some models after 2001 !!! And even DCIs (at WV on a Golf less efficient than some Renault DCI (or not) (euro standard "expensive not what"), while vehicles like my BM phase 1 of late 1993 is already and in any case contradictions like that there are on hundreds of vehicles !!!

And especially good is what to do etc Eurox standard organizations like the UTAC except for respect also why no responsible lesgislateurs not recall these facts to the honorable mayor, who certainly out wanted to do (Cop21 etc), should strongly here acquiesce to this kind of decision, it's a bit the purpose of this site (by others) if I'm not mistaken.

If all goes well I should be able to start this coming weekend (the bridge between other buddy, feel like breaking my back ... arf, arf) and meanwhile I already looking into the plans and vehicle instead I could use.
I would make a return on qq issues highlighted in these posts, relevant to demerant.

But mostly you mean:
Flytox wrote:Not better, I stopped my R19, they no longer want the Technical Control .... :frown:
.


Why does the CT no longer want them? I do not understand, it is possible to pass an "old" vehicle only this one is checked against the standards of its time (no reading of OBD sockets, no abs test for example etc ...)
Or it would be made of whether Pantonisé and less unburned and therefore not in accordance pollution tests?

thank you Flytox, thank you all, "The show must go one!"
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Re: Project G + Pantone BMW E36 TDS: Motor M51




by Flytox » 19/07/16, 23:21

jrneco wrote:3rd: if I add a reactor in the 1st exhaust outlet just after the turbo (since there is one) this may interfere with the catamaran and the computer, because this "foreign" body not provided for in the calculations initials of the constructor, will modify two things:

- The temperature will be changed as I said, or even cool exhaust gases and therefore probably interfere various paramêtres ...
- The exhaust flow will also be disturbed, because the reactor is at the ready of the output of the exhaust manifold / turbo, this entails in extentio new parameters.

But hey, it certainly is relative is not on the F1 or scientific or military requirements.

It is sure that the temperature, pressure and gas flow will change. At worst you can even have acoustic interference that can affect the longevity of the turbo. But who will try .... : Mrgreen:

The proposition of my mechanic friend that we will call "super mystery mechanic" is SMM, here it is done, therefore SMM proposes to me to compensate for this temperature difference with the addition of a resistance to go back to the ideal temperatures. ..
Only the interest of the Pantone system (generally Gillier or not), it is precisely to use thermal heat (60% theoretical !!) recovered or rather, to vapocracker water hydro (and caboodle) for power injected and the engine (....). If so make a HHO generator, which amounts to another to use electricity from the alternator, which in itself amounts to consume slightly more fuel (without going into a sterile and pointless controversy here ...).

+ 1; draw energy from the alternator is definitely not a good idea, plus it's find x kW more power on the alternator not even 1 kW ..... to recover can be tail- slab (not at all sure that a very high temperature is required), you can forget now!

I'll ask SMM, which probe can I use to know the temp out turbo (particularly) but if there are suggestions I'm interested.

With a rigid type K thermocouple 1.5 mm diameter it quite works for several years.

The reminder of the difference between pure Pantone and Gillier Pantone (I call Pantone G +), do not require the same temperature requirements, so you allude that do not create the same gases (qq kinds, forgiveness for the vulgate), I did not know, or rather you put lights on aspects that I had not considered ...

In the Gillier Pantone, AMHA we only make a gas stream containing, among other things, water vapor and electrified water micro-droplets in suspension. In the "pure" Pantone one can crack hydrocarbons with water and a lot of heat to make a combustible gas, ("Geet" as the Sieur Pantone said) or Mr David.

About R19: is it about the law of hildago sur Paname ?! Because indeed, why not rather have to respect the Euro standards (5-6 etc) that the UTAC and the European harmonization is doing, consequence on the CT (besides SMM is pure controller), which precisely recall all the inconsistency of this bureaucratic, hyprocritical and above all unfair law: indeed there are vehicles after 1997 which pollute more than some before: there are still TDs after 97 in catalysis pollutes more than some from before (sold on some models after 2001 !!! And even DCIs (at WV on a Golf less efficient than some Renault DCI (or not) (euro standard "expensive not what"), while vehicles like my BM phase 1 of late 1993 is already and in any case contradictions like that there are on hundreds of vehicles !!!

Our "brilliant" politicos are in politics and not in technique .....


If all goes well I should be able to start this coming weekend (the bridge between other buddy, feel like breaking my back ... arf, arf) and meanwhile I already looking into the plans and vehicle instead I could use.
I would make a return on qq issues highlighted in these posts, relevant to demerant.

You make us some pictures? : Mrgreen:

But mostly you mean:
Flytox wrote:Not better, I stopped my R19, they no longer want the Technical Control .... :frown:
.


Why does the CT no longer want them? I do not understand, it is possible to pass an "old" vehicle only this one is checked against the standards of its time (no reading of OBD sockets, no abs test for example etc ...)
Or it would be made of whether Pantonisé and less unburned and therefore not in accordance pollution tests?

My transformations, various instrumentations were very many and not discrete. Each new CT, the controller was entitled to some mods again, ... he finally said stop! This is understandable, it is his responsibility, signature, it did not look like any of the original engine. Yet TB of 2 years ago, the opacity control it as well was that recent cars (she 24 years). (Though this control seems to me questionable as judge environmental quality of exhaust gases ...)

Good mechanical. :P
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Re: Project G + Pantone BMW E36 TDS: Motor M51




by jrneco » 20/07/16, 15:26

Without wanting to polish you "the things" you're a good Flytox, it shows, I have enough "little" skills to feel it my faith.
I would return, photos etc of course, already tonight I make him read the posts for SMM starts in the bath, I need that kind of expertise to achieve quality project that I designed. In addition it serious hearts crates and crates qq collector, doing prosyléthisme shamelessly, I loved to attend restart moove Pantone G + X- and affiliates ...)

As I said, I would ask the opinion to SMM especially concerning your R19 because if it is true that the controller puts his signature play, I remain skeptical (but I may be wrong), when in its opinion on the mods motors, well, mostly for a certain vehicle ages, I'll talk with him, he is well versed as it seeks to mount his view CT to be controller of controllers : Mrgreen:
A + + +
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Re: Project G + Pantone BMW E36 TDS: Motor M51




by jrneco » 30/07/16, 15:25

Hello,
I have not yet begun assembly, qq personal requirements and lacked the proper stainless steel (304? which one) but today I look for a retailer to prepare the reactor (the most difficult part in qq so well I do a simple mono I think)
I seek information on the quality and size of hollow tubes and full, quality, dimensions, I'm interested in all good advice.
Is there would advice or suggestions when the dimensions: lengths of the respective tubes, thicknesses, types and dimensions or separations between the two tubes, I remember very well: does a millimeter, see two is required (between the hollow tube and full tube), there is there a coast and rules to follow?
the venturi blades are fixed them well?
Spray for as I do so I learned copper I believe that, it should not be a problem.
Drip: for water management until Spray was the solution we used, there were there any improvements or other techniques?
etc
thank you for any advice

There I go on to find mops steel retail ... I do not know if I would find in any case I am in qq days.
Finally, pending a thermal camera, I found a special thermometer high temperature furnace, I'll give it a try and try to hang at the ready and turbo drive as long as possible to get an idea of ​​average temperatures hoping I exceeds 300 ° Celsius ... I doubt already.

I see not let the matter, Anne Warning vapocracking ... the revolution is back:

- "Ha it will be fine .... the aristos ....."
Good weekends and thank you to all and stubborn on this issue (among others)
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Re: Project G + Pantone BMW E36 TDS: Motor M51




by Flytox » 31/07/16, 00:39

jrneco wrote:Hello,
I have not yet begun assembly, qq personal requirements and lacked the proper stainless steel (304? which one) but today I look for a retailer to prepare the reactor (the most difficult part in qq so well I do a simple mono I think)
I seek information on the quality and size of hollow tubes and full, quality, dimensions, I'm interested in all good advice.

You should first choose whether you are making a "pure" Pantone or a Gillier Pantone. AMHA le Pantone pure only works properly on a fixed speed engine (therefore not on a car).
For stainless steel, "any" will be sufficient.
Here you will find the above help the Gillier Pantone for pure Pantone little we practiced .....

Is there would advice or suggestions when the dimensions: lengths of the respective tubes, thicknesses, types and dimensions or separations between the two tubes, I remember very well: does a millimeter, see two is required (between the hollow tube and full tube), there is there a coast and rules to follow?

The tubes in general should be as short as possible. A long pipe condenses too much and hardly carries more steam.
Their diameter must be roughly between 10 and 16 mm (for the transport of steam).
The rod of the reactor must be at least 14 mm diameter. The space to the radius, between the rod and the envelope, should be about 1 mm (in 0.8 1.5).
The length of the stem should be between 150 and 250 mm and be removable (fouling).
Pipes can be rubber / silicone / copper / stainless steel with temperature and needs but should certainly not make low point. In this case, these will fill with water at one time or another and can do damage if the engine swallows the contents of a sudden ....
A small "chamber" just before and just after the reactor rod is certainly a good thing.
Measuring the temperature of the steam is wise between the reactor outlet and the junction to the intake pipe.

the venturi blades are fixed them well?

You mix .... there is no fixed or mobile blades or a venturi. (Searches on the site).

Spray for as I do so I learned copper I believe that, it should not be a problem.
Drip: for water management until Spray was the solution we used, there were there any improvements or other techniques?
etc

Of all water management systems for Pantone Gillier I tried, the only one who was really reliable / repetitive / controllable comprised:
In a wiper pump (underfed 9V), a reservoir bottom (in charge / pump), a filter, a high tank with overflow that returns to the tank bottom. The water flow control in Gillier being performed by a needle valve on the dashboard.
With that you have clean water (over untimely closures), constant pressure (constant height), adjustable flow, can interrupt the water immediately if necessary (city traffic etc ...), the ability to accurately measure the water cons ....

Finally, pending a thermal camera, I found a special thermometer high temperature furnace, I'll give it a try and try to hang at the ready and turbo drive as long as possible to get an idea of ​​average temperatures hoping I exceeds 300 ° Celsius ... I doubt already.

If you are not measures amid the vein of exhaust, you will read an unrepresentative temperature of the exhaust stream (big mistake kind between 50 and 100 ° C lower than reality).
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Re: Project G + Pantone BMW E36 TDS: Motor M51




by chatelot16 » 31/07/16, 11:00

the heat from the exhaust might be cracked water but the product hydrogen recombines instantly to oxygen hopeless ...

the heat from the exhaust can be used to vaporize water to swallow is the steam engine ... during eplosion water cracked: it absorbs energy and reduces the maximum temperature ... when the piston goes down the relaxation lowers the temperature and the hydrogen will burn and make the energy it has absorbed at the beginning of the combustion

or is the benefit? when water decomposes it makes more oxygen available to burn more carbon thus reducing particulates: Oxygen combines with carbon priority ... then burn the hydrogen with the oxygen remaining

I feel it's the same principle as the EGR: H20 and CO2 is the same property to promote commbustion carbon ... except that EGR, that does not aporte H2O and CO2 but also of nitrogen from the air completely harmful

steam injection brings only clean water, thus without fouling the system

the first benefit of reducing the maximum temperature is useless if we do not change the engine: it would increase the compression ratio to take advantage of this

how to encrypt the medium without benefit of accurate measurement? reduction of polution? which has a means of measuring the pollution of his car on an entire route

if we manufactured a way to measure the pollution of a car during its use is certainly find that the car factory has modern gas poluent much more than he boasts, because phase demarge or cleaning particle filter. .. we would see may be the only water injection is an honorable result in a simpler way

but until there is no means for measuring what good modify a vehicle to be unable to see the result

I opened a topic on another forum to know if there were already polution measures on vehicles that roll in normal use http://www.usinages.com/threads/mesure- ... ule.92025/

for a scientific gait, the premierre thing to do is a way of measuring polution hauls

2eme the stage is a means of injecting water, although not necessarily with the heat from the exhaust to not have to make amendments to the vehicle: one as silly solution with a small boiler that burns fuel would valid for test and measurement
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