Energy storage gravity

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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by sicetaitsimple » 06/01/18, 13:56

moinsdewatt wrote:
lilian07 wrote:stock and price management, nothing is currently optimized, which is why our dams generally remain full (90% of the time). True intelligent management of the energy flow at the macroscopic (region / department) and microscopic (housing) levels would certainly make it possible to use dams at 80% instead of the current 10%


Totally bogus figures.

Please cite a serious study.


Do you also have some doubts?

The specialty of Lilian07 seems to be (at least in some areas, cf. the recent debate on the flexibility of nuclear power) to assert things that are best to one's beliefs, at worst of trollism, which things can be dismantled in a few minutes by access to public sites, in this case eco2mix managed by RTE.

No need for serious study, just a look at eco2mix!
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lilian07
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by lilian07 » 07/01/18, 10:31

STEP IN FRANCE URSAT 2011. DIRECTOR EDF HYDRAULIC DIRECTOR REPORT ...
We learn in particular that a dam is used in frequency on a daily to weekly cycle depending on the price and that the increase in renewable energies and variable pricing increases the pumping turbine cycle .... current low exploitation because low kWh rate ... .
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by sicetaitsimple » 07/01/18, 12:19

lilian07 wrote:We learn in particular that a dam is used in frequency on daily to weekly cycle depending on the price ....


It's a bit unfair as a wording! You could have said "we confirm" rather than "we learn", since I wrote you a little higher:

"A STEP does not work according to the origin of the electrons, but according to the value (as a first approximation the market price) between the electricity which it must use to pump and that which it will restore by turbining, knowing that between the two there is a loss (in volume of MWh) of around 20%.

Whether it is nuclear, renewable energies, coal or gas, or even "fatal" hydroelectric power over the water does not change anything.

So the operation of a WWTP is not linked to the electricity mix, but to variations in market prices. Of course, a very "intermittent renewable" mix will occasionally cause strong variations.
"

By the way, where are you in your research on "our dams full 90% of the time?"
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by sicetaitsimple » 07/01/18, 14:11

Complement: to be precise, it is not said in the article as you summarize it that "the dam is used according to the price", it is written if it is indeed the same publication:

http://ecolo.org/documents/documents_in ... t-2011.pdf

"The opportunities to generate income by performing pumped storage cycles depend on:
• of the size of the price gap between off-peak and peak hours
• cycle efficiency (ratio between the energy produced and the energy consumed, from 75 to 80%)
When the price gap is lower than the cycle yield, the STEP cannot generate an income.
"

Your "addition" at the end of the post "current low exploitation because low Kwh tariff ..." is therefore not worth a nail.
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lilian07
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by lilian07 » 07/01/18, 16:40

No more than your assertion on the flexibility of nuclear power, but I don't have much time to demonstrate your absurdities that you gleaned from right and left without analysis just by exploiting data to your advantage ("flexible" nuclear waste is a very bad idea which consists in letting the future generation manage our problems ...).
When we do not understand the operation of a nuclear boiler and we demonstrate flexibility by the total energy consumed to the user is to ignore the efficiency and how to degrade it while "poisoning" the reactor.
Yes, a nuclear power plant in the field of energy production is the least flexible system in the world except by wasting the surplus, but this is true then for the entire energy production sector.
As for hydraulics, yes the dams are only used at 10% to 15% at most of the potential, mainly due to the price of Kwh.
If renewable energies develop and highly variable pricing also, there will be a multiplication by 2 see 3 the yield of STEP.
If I include all of the hydraulics in France (unit of less than 1 MW) then we can say that there is even more potential.
Please stop the "trolism" for a moment, the idea is to gain height without sinking into the wrong words and without sinking into the technical details that no one can verify or measure the effects on the whole of the comments ...
When in the introductory summary of the above report it is written that a WWTP is filled for a week we can simply understand that its use is very low .... if we know the total "emptying" time ....
Which does not contradict your analysis on the price which justifies besides that most of the time the WWTP are stopped while waiting for a favorable price or sometimes a week ....
It is certain that by putting our nuclear power stations at bottom of "waste" it is unlikely that the hydraulics will work at full capacity.
It is indeed the arrival of intermittent mass renewable energies which will one day be able to make a real good marriage between the "nuc" and the rest of the renewable energies which I confirm will be essential in the transition (I am by no means an anti-nuc .. .).
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by sicetaitsimple » 07/01/18, 16:57

Everyone will judge the "height" (sic) of the arguments used and the multiplicity of serious sources credited to these arguments .....

When you cite a serious source (without giving the link for that matter ...) like the one on STEP, one realizes nevertheless by reading it that either you have big problem of comprehension or a big problem of blindness. ...

So, where is hydraulics badly used in France, where are you in your research?
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by sicetaitsimple » 07/01/18, 17:23

lilian07 wrote:When in the introductory summary of the above report it is written that a WWTP is filled for a week we can simply understand that its use is very low .... if we know the total "emptying" time ....


An example of bad reading, because what is written in the text is:

"The optimization is done with a weekly perspective: operation in pure WWTP (recycling
daily) and destocking of a part of the energy stored the previous weekend according to the arbitration carried out on
the 5 working days of the week: in an “average” way, this leads here to destock about every day
1/5 of the volume pumped on weekends. "


The weekly volume WWTP is ideally filled on the WE then used during the week with pumping over every night ("daily recycling") but an initial stock (that accumulated on the WE) which will be gradually used until the following WE.
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lilian07
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by lilian07 » 07/01/18, 22:03

I did not know that this resource was on the internet ... and I have trouble understanding the weekly operation of STEP.
According to you do you really think that the current mode of operation of our STEP is maximum?
The idea of ​​this discussion is not to know if it is an optimum operating mode economically today but to realize that the gravity energy of STEP could bring an additional solution in the energy transition.
In fact it is like that in all fields with "clean" energies our whole society is based on waste ... stock management more than sustainable management which invites the optimum.
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by sicetaitsimple » 07/01/18, 23:21

lilian07 wrote:I did not know that this resource was on the internet ... and I have trouble understanding the weekly operation of STEP.


"you didn't know that this resource was on the internet": and so that allowed you to interpret and distort it freely without reproducing the exact terms? Beautiful ethics ...

"difficult to understand the weekly functioning of a WWTP": well you look at figure 4 of the document.

I give the link again:

http://ecolo.org/documents/documents_in ... t-2011.pdf
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Re: Energy Storage gravity




by chatelot16 » 08/01/18, 00:33

the steps are profitable as soon as the price of energy varies by more than 20%, therefore 1.2

we see the http://www.rte-france.com/fr/eco2mix/donnees-de-marche that the price of electricity varies every day in a much greater way, so if the steps are used correctly they must pump and turbine each day to the maximum of their power! but the steps are too small ... if it were sufficient there would not be as great a variation in the price of electricity

there is not even need of renewable energy to justify the piloting of the consumers to optimize the balance of the network ... we see that the strongest price of electricity is produced by the heavy consumption in broad daylight during the week , it is only on Saturday and Sunday that the price is different, quite low in the day and only strong in the evening when everyone is in front of the TV

so there is no need to wait for renewable energy to be sufficient to need to manage consumers ... to optimize the use of old energy sources consumer management is already useful ... when is what do we start?

not to make a variable tariff to encourage large consumers to adapt their consumption to availability is a waste ... until when will we continue this waste?
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