Can we use a "live" panel?

Forum solar photovoltaic PV and solar electricity generation from direct radiation solar energy.
netshaman
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Can we use a "live" panel?




by netshaman » 22/05/15, 14:28

Let me explain :

Can we do without the battery, can we connect a panel (or more) to power a house live *?
Using a DC / AC converter designed for high power?
For example if I use 750Wp of panels and I connect them to an inverter plugged into a socket and that I cut the current coming from the network?

* should we put a branch regulator on the converter?


The idea is to have a semi-autonomous system, capable of drawing on the network additional energy when that of the panels is not enough.

My idea is pv panels with network micro-inverters for autoconso with a bypass in direct mode providing energy as a priority, when demand is greater than supply, it switches to autoconso mode in all transparency.
The goal of all this complicated system is not to provide free energy to EDF that they can resell at the price of nuclear!
I don't know if I was clear enough!
8)
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Exnihiloest
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Re: Can we use a "live" panel?




by Exnihiloest » 22/05/15, 17:12

netshaman wrote:Let me explain :

Can we do without the battery, can we connect a panel (or more) to power a house live *?
...

In theory, for an electronics engineer, the answer is "yes", with an adequate interface (current limitations, inverters compatible with a wider range of input voltages, etc.). In any case, in the absence of a battery, amha at least one supercapacitor-type buffer would not be a luxury to smooth the transitions, avoid disturbing the TV when you turn on the drill, and protect the panel.
In practice, connecting a system intended to be connected to the battery directly to the panel seems risky without prior study of the specifications.
A simpler solution would be to keep a small buffer battery capable of maintaining the current even if its low capacity would only allow it for 1 or 2 minutes. This avoids all complications.

The goal of all this complicated system is not to provide free energy to EDF that they can resell at the price of nuclear!
I don't know if I was clear enough!

Well no, I thought that the advantage of solar power was precisely that EDF bought the surplus that we produced at a price higher than that of nuclear power (a practice that I find lamentable, by the way)?
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antoinet111
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by antoinet111 » 23/05/15, 08:45

Hi turn to youself consumption, MICES is for you.

a panel, a micro inverter and an elec socket. : Mrgreen: : Idea:
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by elephant » 23/05/15, 18:03

I think it will screw up!

The law of maximum annoyance is such that the available sun will always be "out of phase" with YOUR needs.

We agree that the French system is not ideal: the owners of panels are not well paid as in Belgium, for example.

Because mains injection gives the best efficiency: "your" current goes, for example, to turn on the neighbors' refrigerators when they need energy the most and the TVs or the stoves in the apartments (which have no place to put PV)

It is a united system, like insurance.
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by antoinet111 » 23/05/15, 22:09

Hi, you have to compensate for the background consumption during the day, often between 250w and 750w. it is typically the consumption of the night between 5 and 6h that we can watch because there are not occasional consumers but permanent ones.

personal I have 4 KwH in auto conso but it is too much for autoconso (except particular situations) in MP

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I vote for the writing of concrete post and practicality.

Down the talkers and ceiling fans!
netshaman
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by netshaman » 24/05/15, 00:59

In fact the idea behind all this, it is also to have juice in case of cut, and with the autoconso, not to take advantage of the panels when there is no juice sector, it is a little the hospital which makes fun of charity.
Hence my question from the first post.

@ antoinet111: already done!
I just have to post the mail!
And by the way, very good value for money!

@elephant: I can't come to know with security if in superimposition, we are paid in France.
On the ErDF file, there is only IAB or IABS.
Is superimposition = IABS?

The price at 20 cts (which is completely eccentric and unrealistic) for an IAB installation, it is pipeau, because in this case the integrated panels in the roof overheat (up to 71 ° C after a study) , so much that the yield collapses!
It is better to be in simplified integration (superimposition?), Which it is remunerated only up to 13 cts per kw / h which seems to me more logical, but ultimately more profitable because of a much better yield!
20 cts certainly, but little energy sold, 13 cts but much more energy produced!
But the real question is: is the superimposition = integration into the building simplified since the panels are parallel to the roof?

:?:
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Re: Can we use a "live" panel?




by dede2002 » 25/05/15, 11:32

netshaman wrote:Let me explain :

Can we do without the battery, can we connect a panel (or more) to power a house live *?
...
The goal of all this complicated system is not to provide free energy to EDF that they can resell at the price of nuclear!
...
8)


Hello,

1- it will only work if the panels provide more power than demand, it may crash when starting a fridge for example ...

2- Without going into the calculation of the true price of nuclear power, I am surprised by this reaction. A priori a pv does not wear out more if it draws current, not wanting to share does not bring anything personally, it is not selfishness ...

We must not forget that a PV has had an impact on the environment before being placed on a roof, and that by injecting current into the neighborhood it relieves the network, so logically this energy does not have be produced elsewhere!
The benefit is not only for EDF, it is for everyone ...

A solar panel that does not charge is a polluting solar panel!
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Did67
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by Did67 » 25/05/15, 12:02

netshaman wrote:
The price at 20 cts (which is completely eccentric and unrealistic) for an IAB installation, it is pipeau, because in this case the integrated panels in the roof overheat (up to 71 ° C after a study) , so much that the yield collapses!
It is better to be in simplified integration (superimposition?), Which it is remunerated only up to 13 cts per kw / h which seems to me more logical, but ultimately more profitable because of a much better yield!
20 cts certainly, but little energy sold, 13 cts but much more energy produced!
But the real question is: is the superimposition = integration into the building simplified since the panels are parallel to the roof?

:?:


It is indeed, a "through" of the French regulations. In Germany, the installations are not integrated.

However, double pricing is linked to the additional cost of an integrated installation, and not to the question of efficiency.

Especially since integrated panels, in a barn for example, can be relatively ventilated (from behind).

Yield drops by about 0,5% per degree


The temperature has a considerable influence on the behavior of the cell and therefore on its performance. This influence mainly results in a decrease in the voltage generated (and a very slight increase in the current).

According to the models, this behavior induces, by degree, a loss of 0.5% of the yield compared to the maximum efficiency of the cell. We will therefore understand the importance of correct ventilation at the back of the panels!


Is the deviation of 71 ° the difference between a non-integrated panel and an integrated panel?

I don't think so, because the non-integrated panels also heat up, by the simple fact that they are quite dark. So I think it is the temperature difference between ambient air and panel surface? The difference of 71 ° for an integrated panel will only be 20 or 30 ° perhaps on a free panel ???

But even if it did, that would mean there is a 35% yield difference. Basically: a third.

There are feedback from this site: https://www.econologie.com/forums/optimisati ... 1-110.html

All this depending on the sunshine.

Basically, we realize that it's kifkif ... Should simulate to know what is most interesting: an integrated installation, which costs more, produces less, with a more favorable price or a non-integrated installation, better ventilated, cheaper, which produces more but at a lower price ???

Or indeed, integrate and cool!
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by Did67 » 25/05/15, 12:09

elephant wrote:I think it will screw up!

The law of maximum annoyance is such that the available sun will always be "out of phase" with YOUR needs.

We agree that the French system is not ideal: the owners of panels are not well paid as in Belgium, for example.



I also think that on an individual scale, it is very difficult to smooth out your consumption and stall it on erratic production and conditioned by the weather.

- to compensate for the only "background consumption", stable, during the sunshine, it is to have a limited impact [if we fight against the "watches" and other "background noise", it is not much!]

- compensating and "collecting" the intermittent demand of large consumers (washing machine, freezer or refrigerators, robots, computers, lighting, etc.) is not easy ...

Hence the interest, with solar energy, of "playing together" and of injecting: somewhere, someone always needs it ... and the network manager can, on a statistical basis involving a large number installations, manage the other production units accordingly.

It is, in my opinion, the only solution to "make profitable" (I do not mean finance, but energy balance!) The panels! [except special situation: isolation, etc ...]
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netshaman
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by netshaman » 25/05/15, 14:00

Small precision, in case of network failure, it is a shame to have panels and not to take advantage!
Isn't there a way to continue producing without injecting current, and therefore to have a hybrid solution with a sort of bypass which would choose the priority system in the event of a network outage?
A bit like a generator that would start automatically, but with pv instead ...
And all this without storage, but with a sort of buffer battery or supercapacitor (thank you exnihiloest for the idea!).

Thanks to a circuit like this for example: http://www.ase-energy.com/selecteur-de- ... BYPASS.cfm

Couple has another in this style: http://jr-international.fr/detecteur-co ... rench.html

And besides about supercapacitors: http://www.supercondensateur.com/superc ... erie-plomb
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