Summer geothermal solar heating project for winter

[moinsdewatt]

At dedeleco,

if it is so simple and almost free, implement it.

But stop drooling.

driveline (masculine noun) - Definition Mediadico

Speech without continuation or reason.

Repetitive remarks.


Synonyms of drifting
aggression, repetition, repetition, repetition.
Runaway expressions
What a drivel! - Support someone's drivel. - Falling into drivel. - -

[moinsdewatt]

1) Indeed, if I want to realize this project, I have to find funding.

I need at least:

a) prove that the kWh recovered will come back cheaper than the kWh of a platelet boiler (which we already have) .....

indeed.

and we can say that the platelets (or wood) come from the storage useful for the winter of the photosynthesis energy recovered in the summer by trees and shrubs.
We are not so far from seasonal heat storage.

[dedeleco]

C (proven set to www.dlsc.ca functional from 2007

Le solar thermal efficiency is about 30% , sensors to www.dlsc.ca just on the garage, not even the house and more the summer sensors can be very inexpensive!
Drilling rather holes can be as cheap.
The development of cheap solutions, is a Japanese specialty, and not at all French (without the Japanese we would not have a micro oven (waves, heat pumps, cheap, etc ...).
The development of this adapted to France is infinitely less expensive than that of a single nuclear EPR!

Lastly, wafer wood with a solar yield, more than 10 at 30 times lower than that of solar thermal collectors, pollutes clearly without a very expensive boiler, with a finite life, requires a work of lumberjacks incessantly, sometimes dangerous, with rarely a dead person who has a tree on his head, (inevitably seen what I saw, how do some pros work, for a dangerous job that I did for me, with more attention than them!), more to make these chips or pellets, they use a lot of energy with big planing machines and its transport (from a few% to 10% of the energy ) and so its price is quite high, just following the price of fuel oil or gas, following the principle of supply and demand, with to pay a hard and dangerous work of lumberjack, and especially that some point out that not all our forests are enough for all the energy we need.
So platelets are not free at all!
This work, even simple, just to recover the free wood, which I see abandoned everywhere, is certainly too hard, since I hardly see anyone do it, even poor!

Once done, www.dlsc.ca is free in perpetuity, indestructible, without any pollution, without any work, without using insufficient forests for the needs, improving over time like the square root of this time and more !!

It's amazing how, by habit of bad solutions, constantly, some may deny the reality of the best simple solution, which works perfectly at www.dlsc.ca free in perpetuity, without pollution, without CO2, without consumption of anything, without tiredness, without deaths, without radioactivity, local without any transport at a distance, with good yield, 3 times the photovoltaic, well over 10 times that of the biomethane, and wood chips, etc.

And to call it drivel is nonsense and that's deny the reality which will be necessary, sooner or later, instead of the current solutions complicated to pleasure, and therefore expensive !!

For greenhouses is the ideal solution, free forever!

[chatelot16]

to stop drooling you have to finish at least one significant calculation

what volume of land does it take to store the 129MWh a month of vacancy from the factory next to did

how much MWh can we recover 2 months later to heat the greenhouse at the beginning of the winters

theoretical calculation to be done in the case of a favorable ground: dry limestone without loss by the water, and easy to drill ... it is in the compact limestone that the drilling is the cheapest

when you have given this answer, it will make it possible to make a calculation of the cost price of the drilling, and to estimate the cost price of the recovered heat: if this price is interresting in this ideal theoretical case, that justifies to make a true study to go further

if the price of the recovered heat is too expensive in this case ideal not worth going further

I have already examined the data of your http://www.dlsc.ca/ but I never find what I want ... that global results that do not allow to draw the useful given to another project ... I just notice one thing: they continue to consume a lot of gas : I am convinced that with better architecture and better insulation it could consume the same amount of gas without thermal storage!

[chatelot16]

A basic figure that fixes the ideas is that one stores roughly 10KWh / m3 earth (clay for example, a little more in the rock) by heating 36 ° C in addition to 20 ° C to 56 ° C

the ground is free but the drilling is not: for example 50 euro the m: with grid has a drilling all the 2 m it makes a hole all the 4m2, so a m of drilling for 4m3 of earth

so it costs 50 / 4 = 12,5 euro / m3

12,5 euro / m3 / 10KWh / m3 = 1,25 euro / storable kWh

if this system only works once a year from summer to winter and we want to depreciate it in 10 years, it provides energy at 0,125 euro / kWh which is not free of charge. all

and I chose 2 meter between each drilling completely at the helm, it is possible that it is not enough, that it limits too much the maximum power of load or discharge of the storage: if it takes one every meter, that in 4 times more: the price goes to 0,5euro / kWh ... it's catastrophic, even more worth talking about

is the 10kWh figure by m3 the heat that enters or exits the earth? if only the heat that enters the cost price of what goes out will increase

and I gave a cost price of drilling 50 euro per m very optimistic ... and we must add the price of pipes and pumps

I do not see much hope of achieving a very glorious result

a hot water balancing system that stores at times when all the heat of the engine is not consumed, and gives it back when it needs more heat, fills up and empties hundreds of times a year, so it pays off much more easily

the storage in the soil does not work at short therme because the soil is not good conductor: it does not support the charges and fast discharge

from elsewhere at dlsc.ca they had to put hot water balloons in addition

[Did67]

to stop drooling you have to finish at least one significant calculation

what volume of land does it take to store the 129MWh a month of vacancy from the factory next to did

how much MWh can we recover 2 months later to heat the greenhouse at the beginning of the winters

theoretical calculation to be made in the case of a favorable ground: dry limestone without loss by the water, and easy to drill ... it is in the compact limestone that the drilling is the least expensive!

The soil is a loess, deposit of Aeolian loam (from China at the end of I do not know which glaciation, one of the best land in the world!).

I have to check, but I think we are 17 m above the great water table of Alsace ...

Easily pierced!

[Did67]

it will make it possible to make a calculation of the cost price of the drilling, and to estimate the cost price of heat recovered: if this price is interresting in this ideal theoretical case, it justifies to make a real study to go further

if the price of the recovered heat is too expensive in this case ideal not worth going further

I have already examined the data of your http://www.dlsc.ca/ but I never find what I want ... that global results that do not allow to draw the useful given to another project ... I just notice one thing: they continue to consume a lot of gas : I am convinced that with better architecture and better insulation it could consume the same amount of gas without thermal storage!

Exact.

It's my point of view.

Any project begins with a "ladle" or "table corner" calculation ...

To validate, in the hypothesis that this calculation is favorable, it will be necessary a more thorough study, to convince financiers [seeing that dedé, apparently, does not want sponsored, in spite of his convictions, so that finally in France one has an example to really put under the nose of everyone!]

One day, I do not know where, I wrote that I talked a lot, but that I also tried to act; at work: wood chip boiler from 1 MW; 600 m² photovoltaic roof; an anaerobic digestion unit of 180 electric kW; production of 15 ha organic hops - probably one of the 1ers European producers!, but no rapeseed hull to run the smoteurs - as soon as the craze of the Villepin era, it seemed dangerous compared to the food competition; to the private: pellet conveyor, CESI, LPG cars - photovoltaic roof and maybe, if it moves, electric car in projects.

[Did67]

a hot water balancing system that stores at times when all the heat of the engine is not consumed, and gives it back when it needs more heat, fills up and empties hundreds of times a year, so it pays off much more easily

that's what we have with the neighboring factory: the manufacture of hot water for a day is stored in a huge tank (it's already impressive).

For inter-seasonal storage, hardly lost.

Like you, I did not find any useful on the Canadian site, in terms of costs / operational power (that is to say on recovered energy).

There are tons of pilot projects with grants. Those which are "replicable" on a large scale, without subvetion, it is something else ...

[dedeleco]

they continue to consume a lot of gas: I am convinced that with better architecture and better insulation it could consume the same amount of gas without thermal storage!

Gas is hot water and everything depends on their use and it is a pure sophism (typical Obamot) out of this gas constantly, while they have been very careful to separate sanitary heating.
When I see more 10 factors in the use of hot sanitary water, between me and my children !!, it's pure sophistry (or manipulation), I even saw 3 taking 4 hot baths by day, to wet the whole apartment, amazing !!.
I do not need hot water from June to September, cold tap water suffices me.
France is hotter than DLSC at 1000m altitude with continental climate.

www; dlsc.ca keep their secret, likely patents, but they must have published scientific studies, like many others.
If I put it it will not be read !!

The volume of land needed is easy to calculate, as I did repeatedly, some posts above, clearly not read, function of the final Tfor example from 20 ° C to 56 ° C with 36 ° C more than solar collector summer unpretentious and cheap, the clay about 1KJ / ° Ckg (actually 1,276 but variable depending on its quality) is stored 10KWh / m3, 4 times less than in water !!!
If more T, we can put the double 92 ° C = 20 + 72 ° C with steam that certainly emerges.
Either for 129MWh or 129000KWh you need 12900m3 of earth.
either a cube of 23,5m on the side, or in a cubic cylinder a diameter of D = 25,4m on 25,4m of depth.
The ideal is the sphere that minimizes losses as the ratio surface area volume!
Did67 thinks to recover partially these losses by reassemblies in the ground of the greenhouse, towards the surface.
If by excavation one moves all the soft earth, it is possible to better isolate below, (humus straw, and waterproof film) by blocking any circulation of water, without too much depth. in the arable land.
the depth is fixed by the duration.

The value of the heat capacity is a function of the limestone which has different qualities, to specify, so compact as the marble is the double, but I think that the light limestones (chalks are much lower) and therefore the value of the dimensions in the marble can be cubic root of 2 times weaker, either 1,26 of these D = 25,4 m is D = 20,2m with massive marble !!

The losses are those in the diffusivity length with diffusivity 1,35 times more than for the clay of 1mm2 / s and all depends on the shelf life which cycles in sinusoid roughly with a length rac (1,35) = 1,16 times more than for the clay:
about a second about 1mm (or 1,35s).
Did67 talks about the heat lost the weekend to use on the week a priori and whose quantity depends on the external T, so quite adapted to the needs of the greenhouse, which vary as the outer T too.
Did67 has it too much winter every weekend, If I understood correctly and therefore the total amount to be stored is much higher, without use each week, 8,5 times more on 2 months of 8,5 weeks and therefore the size D of storage will have to grow as the root of 8,5 is 2 about and the cylinder goes to D = 50m on 50m depth.

On 2 months is 24hx3600sx60j = 5,184million of seconds, which is modified by the progressive arrival each weekend of the excess heat to store, and also by the use by the greenhouse, which does not have a need for 2 full month, unless she is expecting the very big cold ????
If we assimilate this balance to a source of sinusoidal heat which gives and then resumes, then the length is root of (2xDiffusivity / pulsation) or with the pulse = 2xPi / T (T period) we obtain the length L = rac (DxT / Pi )
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusivit%C3%A9_thermique

If the period is 2 month, we divide by Pi the two months which gives 5,184 / Pi = 1,65 millions of s and with the square root a length of 1,284m of the order of the meter on which the oscillation of T decreases by = 2,72, which contains on this length by integrating the exponential heat that diffused to lower T.
This diffused heat can be recovered at lower T with peripheral drilling in addition to a few meters, unheated, but recuperator of this heat diffusing over time, at T lower but still useful, especially for a greenhouse.
Public chat www.dlsc.ca, clearly they do that heating the center and recovering T lower on the periphery.

So, in proportion, the lost heat is that in this layer of 1m on all the surface of the cylinder of size D = 50m (or 25m not possible since each week one reloads with what would be lost anyway !!!!) .
on 50m L = 1m gives the volume PixDxDxL to divide by the volume of the cylinder PI / 4xD ^ 2xD is 4x L / D = 4x1 / 50 = 8% partially recoverable to T lower with holes in periphery !!

If it's just too much of a single weekend kept 2 month, it's about 16%.

Given the vagueness on the supply of heat and the actual use, according to the vagaries of the weather, sophisticated sophisticated calculations, will be a pure psychological placebo effect !!

It is about recovering the lost heat anyway, forgotten by those who speak of losses and not of what is saved in useful heat !!

It is essential, of course, to know the soil, real with its homogeneity and its cowholes, at least in order of magnitude.

www.dlsc.ca keep their secrets detailed, so as not to be stolen.

[chatelot16]

The soil is a loess, deposit of Aeolian loam (from China at the end of I do not know which glaciation, one of the best land in the world!).

I have to check, but I think we are 17 m above the great water table of Alsace ...

Easily pierced!

badly barred to store heat in the ground ... the water of the water will rather be a constant temperature

pierces easily? yes for a yard drilling to pump water ... not for a deep drilling to get something else under the water table: soft ground is more expensive in drilling than good old limestone

the presence of a sheet of water can rather serve as cold source at low temperature in summer to make an additional thermal machine

theoretical efficiency = 1 - Tf / tc

Tf = 10 ° C + 273 = 283 ° K
Tc = 90 ° C + 273 = 363 ° K
1 - Tf / tc = 1 - 283 / 363 = 0,22 = 22%

of course it is the theoretical maximum it would be more prudent to count on 10% but 10% of 150kW it is still 15kW

it is not huge, but the machine to make 15kW will not be huge either ... like a heat pump of the same power

alas this heat machine will not work often: that when the factory that consumes hot water is on vacation: it would be more profitable to settle for a smaller one using the heat in rab available all the year ... kind 50kw thermal to make 5kW electric which will be more profitable because working all the year

electricity is sold at what price?