Man, this suicidal animal

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Obamot
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by Obamot » 15/10/12, 15:39

I'm ok with all of this! Just a few leads (hoping this time my thinking is better structured : Cheesy: )

Finally I agree with the four of you:

Ahmed: by the fact that he often knows how to find the egg and make us understand if the hen was there before (or not) ... And why we must look for the problem in the egg rather than outside! : Cheesy: When he does not manage to explain us in a masterly way: that the egg and the hen, it is white cap, and egg white! And to conclude that one should not take one for the other.
(I know, it's very simplistic, but like that at least, I don't wet my bread bathed in egg yolk too much ... ^^)

So yes: power is the problem. And we should oppose the principle of "Responsibility Law"! which makes ...

highflyaddict: who is not all wrong ... And for whom, the quettion of "irresponsibility", is at the center, it is still necessary to define what is behind: why and how it works.

Sen-No-Sen; because he did a sociological analysis which seems to me to hold up very well.
and...
The middle, because, my feeling, is very close to his words!

So the question is not "Do we live in a predatory society (?)" but unfortunately "Why(?)". Obviously who can claim to have all the answers all by himself? On the other hand, one can reason by abstractions and deductions.

In fact, legislative and executive are there to maintain a certain social peace and at the same time to "lead, coerce and control the people ”! Precisely striking as soon as one begins to speak of a challenge to power and the established order (workers VS industry, for example).

So everything is working as best it can "In everyday life", when it goes pretty well ... While when it goes bad, there is no longer any recourse! Society goes wrong and the victims are left behind: that's the rule! "Repair" cases are extremely rare, look around! The justice system is there to discourage us from using it.

The civil society having - in a way - replaced the system of predation which one meets in nature, by another system which is none other than "a supervised predation system», Where you can eat others without getting caught, under certain conditions and if you know how to do it. Working at my job (around management and business organization oriented towards prevention), I can say that out of competition "on a regular basis", this is indeed the case with what happens in all sectors business! It seems to me that there is no sector that escapes that!

So for The middle, there are some reasons that precede this:

"Personally, I want to say that the people who are in power, commit suicide or kill our future." - the middle

Observation that I do not want to change, so as not to distort your words.

And alas this "framed predation»We find it in so many fields, that we cannot see that it is unfortunately even transgenerational in the West (therefore sometimes very cruel and iatrogenic by nature) while it is taboo to attack the old in Asia, or older pus are revered.

Here is a little from a certain angle, how I see the crumbling often described by Ahmed: it is a systemic predation!

Although originally, the system was also and above all to guarantee a “systemic success”: it is clear that it failed! Since the success is not shared and leads cyclically to "systemic crises”, Sort of a large mower proceeding by a leveling down paradigm.
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by Ahmed » 15/10/12, 20:33

Highflyaddict you reacted to my laconic message, I will clarify it by going in the direction of Sen-no-sen: whatever (possibly) good intentions, the power is separation, it leads to forking towards the defense of the interests of the ruling caste, even if it is entirely new and of substitution.
Progress would be to get out of this classic submission scheme within the group and thus access a greater humanity.

I agree with you, Obamot, when you put forward the concept of "supervised predation": the role of the state (it's a simple observation) is to organize inequality and conflicts so that they are optimized, ie that they are maximized without, however, exceeding a limit which would be incompatible with the continuation of this process.

This is why, when you write:
Although originally, the system was also and above all to guarantee a “systemic success”: it is clear that it failed! Since success is not shared and leads cyclically to "systemic crises", a sort of big grim reaper using a race to the bottom paradigm.

all you do is note a logical evidence: as in the lottery, the success of some implies the failure of others, in a system of competition; and, "systemic success" is just a flower of rhetoric, ordinary propaganda ...
(note: you are outright abusing the word "paradigm", fortunately there is no copyright attached to its use!) : Cheesy: : Cheesy: : Cheesy:

To come back to the original subject, the title should have been questionable because by essentializing the suicidal tendency, we are advancing a lot!
I have already mentioned self-destructive impulses, but I think that they are linked to a historical stage, ours, where the humanity of each is denied at the same time as it is paradoxically celebrated in the form of a ideal beyond reach: from this unbearable schizophrenia results a powerful, although not very conscious, aspiration to death.
Style Nero democratizes!

The middle you write:
... People who are in power, we commit suicide ...

At the risk of significantly distort your thought, I would say that dispossessing us of our power that convinced us to put in their hands, they remove us as autonomous beings, reducing us to a heavy passivity consequences.
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by the middle » 15/10/12, 22:40

a passivity fraught with consequences.

d'accord
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by Obamot » 16/10/12, 00:31

If the title had to be changed, I would say: suicidal tendency and fascination AND / OR genocidal:
http://www.metrofrance.com/info/breivik ... zd8sceseI/

I indeed hesitated to use the word "paradigm", to finally adopt it. I knew it could talk : Cheesy: I had a choice between modus vivendi and that but the idea was missing the modus, and regarding the principle of responsibility ... I finally opted! Because...:

Ahmed wrote:Agree with you, Obamot, when you put forward the concept of "framed predation": the role of the state (it's a simple observation) is to organize inequality and conflicts in such a way that they are optimized, ie they are maximized without exceeding a limit which would be incompatible with the continuation of this process
There is no limit amha. Whether in families themselves, and even in the upper echelons ...

The only difference is the placement of the cursor from one lifestyle to another, from one era to another, etc. It changes, but the paradigm remains: because it is indeed a paradigm in question, even if it escapes the working masses because so well hidden, and even if - despite the omerta - those who really realize it in their entirety, do it rather in the fall of their life: alas, with a meager compensation: the remoteness of egocentric velocity (well not for everyone .... alas again).

This is probably due to the Manichean "heritage" of religious and military teachings (in the archaic sense of these terms) in a fairly general way, and which govern our societies (whether we participate in it or not, the fact is that we is imbued with it): from the concept of good VS evil, to that of life VS death. heaven VS hell, etc. A kind of paradigm anchored in the collective unconscious ... And which influences as best it can, our own paradigm (if you can find another word?).

And paradoxically it is true, societies tend towards a greater humanity (the position of the cursor between the extremes ... is changing: what was commonplace the day before yesterday, was no longer tolerable yesterday and has become unthinkable today, only the suffering remains. In a way ...). So the continuation of the process is on a "fluctuating mode".

Ahmed wrote:everyone's humanity is denied

Well, if we have "erased" individuals so much, their humanity must be part of ... : Cry: it must be that ... It is iatrogenic, hence the impulses of self-destruction!

It has already been largely explained, in the current theoretical model (see in particular Henri Laborit) for a “social” being there are three ways of reacting to an aggression or to stress:
1) we turn around (self-defense, we take the bull by the horns etc ... we shoot down our opponent ...)
2) one accuses the blow and suffers without doing anything;
3) we turn all this violence against ourselves with an infinite panel of self-destructive acts.

In principle, point N ° 1 is taboo and prohibited in a society known as "civilized " (hence the concept of "framed predation system»), And therefore predators have a nice game to put you in front of the accomplished fact of their crimes, since insidiously they must know that they do not risk anything, or not much, as long as they remain within the limits of what they are. authorizes said system! Proof of this is that some can lose hundreds of millions, and be told that, "with regret", in the hushed office of "their" banker, without them thinking for a single second of unraveling (it's taboo) ... and it is the fact that it itches them so much but that they have the conviction that they can do nothing: which risks finishing them ...! You will say to me: a millionaire more or less ... But when that happens with your retirement ...?

This is what it would be better to change.

The almost complete absence of fair and prompt justice to obtain "reparation"Being a proven fact (at the same time you are immediately qualified as"potential guilty of profit-sharing"and therefore guilty anyway: as soon as you take this step, the predator's trap turns against you. I see some ticking ... Aaaah you too, that happened to you ...?)

Then, depending on the degree of trauma, a whole series of depressive situations, conducive to the effects of stages 2) and 3) ... All starting with the loss of confidence and dignity already well started by the system.

Let's say that at this stage I would not speak of "schizophrenia" in the prerequisites but of "self-sustaining dressings"! (In the plural, because: by the family first, then the church for some and / or the school, then the army for some, the apprenticeship in the professional world, and so on ...). The "schizophrenia" resulting from a psychosis, appears only occasionally according to the pathologies (there are several schools). The consequences of "training" (rather than responsible education) can have pathological effects, so yes. Because not everyone reacts in the same way to what is ultimately the architecture of "need of constraint", Brilliantly highlighted by Abraham Masslow. "Need for constraint»Both saving or iatrogenic, it depends on the position of the cursor.

As for Nero, he reigned 14 years until his suicide, it was just two septenat under the V th Republic : Lol:
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by Ahmed » 16/10/12, 20:31

If predation is "framed", it is necessarily because there are limits and this, by definition ...

Yes, I know the theses of Laborit, but this scheme applies to simple cases; coercion within our societies has an origin which is generally too vague to react as in your n ° 1, and reactive violence will be expressed in a random fashion (eg burnt cars, vengeful graffiti or "incivility" towards people who have only the fault of being there in the wrong place, at the wrong time ...).
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by sen-no-sen » 20/10/12, 13:47

Obamot wrote:

It has already been largely explained, in the current theoretical model (see in particular Henri Laborit) for a “social” being there are three ways of reacting to an aggression or to stress:
1) we turn around (self-defense, we take the bull by the horns etc ... we shoot down our opponent ...)
2) one accuses the blow and suffers without doing anything;
3) we turn all this violence against ourselves with an infinite panel of self-destructive acts.


It is point n ° 3 (the inhibition of the action) which lead the individual towards suicide ...

Suicide like intra-specific murder is a peculiarity of man, difficult to find a precise explanation, also difficult to say if he is the only animal to be really eager to want to kill himself.
To have:

http://bigbrowser.blog.lemonde.fr/2011/11/24/regne-animal-lhomme-est-il-seul-a-pouvoir-se-suicider/

If man is suicidal, so will society be? With regard to society, I would lean towards the opposite assertion, but with an equally morbid purpose ...
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by Ahmed » 20/10/12, 16:00

Men are sometimes suicidal, but here, the "man" of the title is humanity, now sufficiently converted to the consumption / consumption of the world, the planetary and neurotic "big food", like these obese who compensate for their discomfort with a fatal bulimia.
Rather than treating these obese people with contempt or commiseration, should we not thank these avant-garde witnesses for providing us with such a clear warning about the dereliction of our societies? :?:
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by Obamot » 20/10/12, 16:50

It's been working on me for several days! This is what I think too ...!

(Both for the comments you make and those of Sen-No-Sen)

We are in this thread, at a kind of border. It is obvious, as you pointed out above, that we are in exaggeration. But indeed, it provides information. It is indicative of our potential behaviors, from causes to effects.

For example: if at more than 80% things go well, you still have to diagnose the causes that make it slip in 20% of cases.

(I know it's worse)

Because we are constantly living in the paradox:

- hyperspecialized medicine full of promise VS access to care for all impossible to achieve;

- a chemical industry which is built around maximum profit and which navigates between worse poisons VS molecules supposed to cure us;

- justice, supposedly faceless VS what about access to it for the underprivileged classes;

- a democratic society with "leaders" elected by the people VS a co-opting system which prohibits access to the upper echelons of the state for the uninitiated, which makes it impossible to express direct democracy (since 'it makes the advent of'citizen magistrates”) Which means that democracy is confiscated;

- technological progress which would make it possible to produce consumer goods guaranteed for life and constantly repairable in case of need VS the necessities of business and turnover which lead inexorably to planned obsolescence;

- doctors who are supposed to take care of their SV patients but who de facto, if they treated them completely, would lose them;

- "insurances" which make you believe that they are there to meet the needs for which they were created VS a whole procession of exclusions and specializations to eliminate "bad risks"And come to no longer reimburse anything, except a long and costly process before the courts which can last up to ten years with all remedies, while you have possibly been ruined ...

- advertising which is there to inform you about the qualities and functionalities of the products but which never stops lying to you in 80% of cases (I apply the 80/20 rule, but it is to be seen if it does not is not more: I now apply in principle the rule that if I see an advertisement for a product, I do not buy it except exclusively if it fills a specific need which cannot be covered otherwise ..!);

- electronics and computing deemed ultra-reliable since the emergence of transistors and other integrated circuits, supposed to help us in our daily tasks and save us time VS the impossiblity of making it work, for lack of update outdated, outdated update, slowed process speed, inoperative batteries because calculated too fair, not found or too expensive, preprogrammed destruction of parts of code, prohibitive repair costs, when they are not simply obsolete because "spent out of fashion ”or broken down because a stupid condo has slammed ...;

- program to reduce Co2 while it is necessary to sell more and more oil and gas for these industries to operate at full speed!

- banks supposed to protect and keep your money, but which lose it on the stock markets by speculating like a casino;

- law of supply and demand, but which only works for those who are at the end of the chain and not for the big economic players (not for too big to be regulated... or too big to fail);

- ad constantly praising you the reliability of motor cars VS the hidden costs of maintenance service resulting from planned obsolescence;

- expiry date for the consumption of products which suggests a demand for freshness, but which masks the fact that these products are totally or largely devitalized for all of them are canned or other pastries with refined products.

- pension funds for which you have contributed so hard, but whose funds are empty when you retire, or which give you peanut ...

- social services, which make you believe that they are social, but which transform you into doorbell takers as soon as you need them, or which put so many pitfalls to dissuade you from using them. And during this time your sanitary state which degrades for lack of care because of lack of means ...

- and I would end with culture: the religion that can be bought ($ cientology, etc.) and the art market that sells priceless works that are priceless, and the governments that frame what remains, because that it constitutes a vital danger for the power and that it is absolutely necessary to control it before it does not take place in the public ... Things that the monthéist religions have been able to do very well for thousands of years ...

All this surely leads you to where you didn't even think you arrived so quickly: to the cemetery! This is called a "busy life" of shit: all of which were created especially for you to get your wallet out!

Is this the company we wanted :?:

At this stage, I can finally say it: it is rather 80% of things that go wrong and 20% which supports the rest ...

Anyway, yes, "The more it progresses, the worse it gets!" But let's do like the roosters with the legs in the manure (and who know they have them): above all "sing" and keep our spirits so as not to fall into depression! : Mrgreen: Because it is iatrogenic !!!

In the meantime, the neuroses self-maintain the neuroses and so on : Cheesy:

I dare not say: "good Sunday" ...
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by sen-no-sen » 20/10/12, 17:35

Obamot wrote:Anyway, yes, "The more it progresses, the worse it gets!" But let's do like the roosters with the legs in the manure (and who know they have them): above all "sing" and keep our spirits so as not to fall into depression! : Mrgreen: Because it is iatrogenic !!!


You're talking about roosters ... I would rather compare us to lemmings!
It has long been said that lemmings practiced group suicide, in reality it is not.
They happen that the lemmings cross streams, small lakes in groups during migration etc ... but it happens sometimes that the latter "make a mistake" and undertake a crossing ... of ocean, resulting in the exhaustion and drowning of the group!
Hence the somewhat hasty assertion of "mass suicide".

I think our society looks like this, a group where everyone follows each other, without having set a goal, leaving the trends of the moment (consumerism) decided in place of the whole ... and this until drowning!
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by Obamot » 20/10/12, 18:23

Sure, by striving for 100% of "success», We might get there! : Cheesy: : Cry:

Honestly, there I have no idea ...! I will have to digest the posts that will follow!

As it is, I try to think "global" in a positive way! Taking into account, for example - as tiny as me - the billions of human beings who get up every morning, more or less all faced with the same problem (if in good health): regulating current affairs, going to work, s 'taking care of your little family, going shopping or whatever ... It's moving and shows that we are not so alone in our misfortunes! While during this time, those who would have all the reins in hand to change things (as in France), camp in the same consumerist paradigm "so that above all nothing is too rushed" (while 20% of they row like animals without success), so in the end so that nothing changes "as much as possible" ...

Rhâaaa, vote " Socialist Was risky! How scared they screwed me up, I thought at one point they were going "Change the world now"! : Cheesy: : Arrowd: phew we were hot!

Image
Aim for the tulip from Holland, I love this cartoon too! ^^

On the other side of the Atlantic it seems the same: faced with these challenges of everyday life, certain silliness launched in the face by the candidates for the American nomination in their different flip-flops, leave me speechless ...
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