Water mill, hydropower and central heating

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
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moulino51
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by moulino51 » 21/12/12, 00:36

Good evening everyone (this is my first message on the forum 8) )

To calculate the power of a fall for a “run-of-river” mill

The formula is 9,81 x Flow (in m3 / s) x Height of fall in meter.

For a mill of this type, it seems important to me that the water motor (wheel blade, impeller, turbine ....) is still present is restorable.

If it is necessary to go through a new development with a new water engine, the return on investment may well exceed 20 years.

The solution generally used to produce energy is the asynchronous generator, with advantages: simplicity, and speed of rotation set on the network.

For a renovated old turbine, the efficiency at the terminals of the installation will be approximately 0,7
For a good quality paddle wheel, count 0,5.

Namely, in low dropping, the turbine will be very large, with a low speed (50 rpm) it will be necessary to go through a multiplier, to reach the final speed of 600, 750, 1000, or 1500 T / min to the connection on the network.

For powers below 30 Kw / h, we prefer self-consumption, and we will take in hand to make even.

To be able to function, the mill will have to have a "legal" existence: either founded in title (before the revolution) or regulated by a regulation of water.

Among the obligations of the miller: respect for the level of the legal restraint not to be exceeded, proper operation of the sluices,
compliance with the new water laws, the obligation to let 10% of the module pass through the short-circuited section, etc.

Good night


GS
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J.Haddi
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Calculation




by J.Haddi » 21/12/12, 10:06

Hello,

A few months after reading this subject, I do not see why the power is doubled in the calculation:

Power = 4500 Lm / s
1 liter water = 1Kg
Power = 9000Kg.m / s

Without doubling, my calculation leads to:

Ph = Qv. Rho. g. h
Ph = 9. 1000. 10. 0,5
Ph = 45 kW

Jacques
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by chatelot16 » 21/12/12, 11:40

thank you, I did not notice this error
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Re: Watermill, hydropower and central heating




by BaudouinLabrique » 16/05/23, 16:57

There is a solution and which was nevertheless developed in Denmark from the first oil crisis: THE WIND THERMAL TURBINE!
We can indeed take inspiration from this system using the Joule effect (heat produced by hydraulic brake) by adapting it: instead of producing heat via the wind turbine, do it directly via the movement of the paddle wheel and which will therefore by agitating the water (Joule effect or hydraulic brake) produce heat.

In what follows, it is therefore necessary to adapt the text.

« The thermal aerogenerator is a system that converts wind energy into stored heat, when it is not needed, in a well-insulated water tank. These systems are probably the most practical and cost effective way to use wind energy in a home today. »

(Mc Cutcheon, Sean, Wind Power, Ottawa, Office of Conservation and Renewable Energy, 1981, p. 14: quoted by https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2a ... R%20HEATER)

« A heat generator based on this principle is simply akin to a wind-powered paddle wheel inserted into a heat-insulated water tank. »

Which is my case and my personal project: “ It is also possible to couple a mechanical wind turbine to a heat pump, which can be less expensive than using a gas boiler or an electric heat pump powered by a wind turbine (wind turbine dedicated to the production of electricity ). »
(Cf. https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/fr/20 ... dmill.html)

This system could therefore be connected underground (so as to improve heat transfer) to the collector of the glycol water circuit (see photo); it is accessible about 20 m from the place where there is already a cubicle which will this time no longer be used as a rainwater reserve, but as a heat-generating tank and supporting the wind turbine.

In view of what follows, this type of wind turbine, which produces heat directly, appears to be without doubt the best solution: "This technology has a yield 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, i.e. i.e. involving the step of conversion into electricity”.

The heat produced in this way is then directly used to heat the glycol water in the heat pump's geothermal circuit.
A Savonius wind turbine (at low altitude ca 4 m) which produces heat by Joule effect via the hydraulic brake exerted could then do the trick.

The accessibility of the system would also allow to be able after a first installation, on the one hand, to optimize the height of the mast and, on the other hand, to try to add to it judiciously higher a Darrieus H rotor (placed higher) to increase performance as needed.
(Cf. www.retrouvessonnord.be/HYBRIDE-SAVONIUS-DARRIEUS.pdf).

Without the (penalizing) intermediary that is electricity production, there are therefore significantly fewer losses and also less expensive equipment (electricity generator, electronic conversion devices, pump, solenoid valves... and all, sources of potential damage).

NB This book in English is partially accessible on Google Books: https://books.google.be/books?id=mEtBN5 ... 2C&f=false

Yet, surprisingly, almost ignored by authorities and other promoters of renewable energies, " the heat-producing wind turbine solves the main shortcomings of wind energy, namely: its low energy density and its intermittency”. It is then necessary to “use similar models to produce heat makes it possible to reduce their “embodied energy” (“embodied energy”: energy necessary during the life of a product, excluding use: manufacturing, transport, maintenance, recycling ...) and costs, as well as increasing their lifespan and improving their performance".
"[...] in the case of the Savonius micro-wind turbine used by scientists as a model (rotor diameter 0,5 m, mast height 2 m), calculations have made it possible to determine that the optimal diameter of the propeller was of 0,388 m. » ; “[…] the Savonius wind turbine, on the other hand, turns out to be a very good candidate for heat production: this small wind turbine managed to generate up to 1 kW of thermal power (at a wind speed of 15 m/s) .
»
(Details : https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yu ... achine.pdf )

Excerpt from my study on the subject and accessible here (from page 4): https://www.retrouversonnord.be/glycolee.pdf

Photo : https://www.retrouversonnord.be/Eolienne-thermique.jpg
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Re: Watermill, hydropower and central heating




by sicetaitsimple » 16/05/23, 18:19

BaudouinLabrique wrote:There is a solution and which was nevertheless developed in Denmark from the first oil crisis: THE WIND THERMAL TURBINE!
......
In view of what follows, this type of wind turbine, which produces heat directly, appears to be without doubt the best solution: "This technology has a yield 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, i.e. i.e. involving the step of conversion into electricity”.
...

That's good, go ahead! :D

PS: by the way, your Solenco Power Box with hydrogen storage which you did for us 4 or 5 years ago, is it good, does it work well?
"There is at the start of the Solenco Power Box an invention of Dr in Physics Hugo Vanden Borre who registered the patent which became the property of the Belgian chemical multinational Solvay (in second position of the Belgian Top 50); it is Ernest Solvay, which created it in 1861... and whose industrial adventure is one of the finest jewels in the world!
Do you think that such a group whose reputation for perennial solidity has never been denied and whose choices have always been promising, would embark on an adventure with no future? : Shock:"
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Re: Watermill, hydropower and central heating




by BaudouinLabrique » 16/05/23, 18:32

sicetaitsimple wrote:
BaudouinLabrique wrote:There is a solution and which was nevertheless developed in Denmark from the first oil crisis: THE WIND THERMAL TURBINE!
......
In view of what follows, this type of wind turbine, which produces heat directly, appears to be without doubt the best solution: "This technology has a yield 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, i.e. i.e. involving the step of conversion into electricity”.
...

That's good, go ahead! :D

PS: by the way, your Solenco Power Box with hydrogen storage which you did for us 4 or 5 years ago, is it good, does it work well?
"There is at the start of the Solenco Power Box an invention of Dr in Physics Hugo Vanden Borre who registered the patent which became the property of the Belgian chemical multinational Solvay (in second position of the Belgian Top 50); it is Ernest Solvay, which created it in 1861... and whose industrial adventure is one of the finest jewels in the world!
Do you think that such a group whose reputation for perennial solidity has never been denied and whose choices have always been promising, would embark on an adventure with no future? : Shock:"


Thank you for this encouragement!
I gave up the Solenco Power Box system and the others available because NOT depreciable (cost nearly €200.000!)
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«There are those who see things as they are and wonder why. Me, I see them as they could be and I say to myself: why not! (Sir Bernard Shaw)
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Re: Watermill, hydropower and central heating




by sicetaitsimple » 16/05/23, 18:56

BaudouinLabrique wrote:Thank you for this encouragement!
I gave up the Solenco Power Box system and the others available because NOT depreciable (cost nearly €200.000!)

Ah, that's nerd!
For the yield 2 to 3 times higher, find out all the same....There is no reason that the "mechanical power generation" part of a wind turbine should have different performances depending on what it drives.
Now, it's true that the performances of an individual Savonius wind turbine are in practice almost nil, multiplying them by 2 or 3 in terms of yield is perhaps possible...
2 or 3 times practically zero is still not far from zero.
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Re: Watermill, hydropower and central heating




by BaudouinLabrique » 17/05/23, 10:17

sicetaitsimple wrote:For the yield 2 to 3 times higher, find out all the same....There is no reason that the "mechanical power generation" part of a wind turbine should have different performances depending on what it drives.
Now, it's true that the performances of an individual Savonius wind turbine are in practice almost nil, multiplying them by 2 or 3 in terms of yield is perhaps possible...
2 or 3 times practically zero is still not far from zero.


"Renewable energy production is almost entirely devoted to generating electricity. However, the energy we use the most is in the form of heat, which can only be produced indirectly by photovoltaic panels or wind turbines with a fairly low yield. A solar thermal collector makes it possible to avoid the stage of conversion into electricity and thus provides renewable thermal energy in a direct and more efficient way. "

"Direct heat generation is less expensive, can (depending on conditions) be more efficient, and is more sustainable than indirect heat generation".

"Solar thermal energy can be used for the production of domestic hot water, for heating or for industrial processes. In addition, this technology yields 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, that is to say involving the stage of conversion into electricity."

"The direct equivalent of wind energy is the mill, an ancestral technique known to all and at least 2 years old. The rotational energy from the rotor was transmitted directly to the shaft of a machine, whether it was a wood saw or a grain grinder. Although old, this method retains its relevance today, especially when combined with new systems, in that it offers better efficiency than converting energy into electricity and then back into rotational energy."

"Another important factor is the reduction in the cost of thermal storage, in the order of -60 to 70% compared to a battery solution or the use or backup generators."

"Second, converting wind or solar energy directly into heat (or mechanical energy) can be more efficient than when an energy conversion takes place. This means that fewer solar or wind energy converters are needed – and therefore less space and resources – to provide a given amount of heat. In short, the heat-producing wind turbine solves the main defects of wind energy, namely: its low energy density and its intermittency. "

"Finally, the production of direct heat significantly improves the profitability and durability of small wind power installations. Experiments have shown that small wind turbines producing electricity have very poor yields and do not always produce enough energy to compensate for that necessary for their manufacture. 12 On the other hand, using similar models to produce heat makes it possible to reduce their "embodied energy" ('embodied energy': energy necessary during the life of a product, excluding use (manufacturing, transport, maintenance, recycling, etc.). .)) and costs, as well as increasing their service life and improving their performance."


"The performance of one of Denmark's first small heat-producing wind turbines was officially tested. The Calorius type 37 – 9 meters high and equipped with a 5 meter diameter rotor – produced 3,5 kilowatts of heat for a wind speed of 11 m/s (strong breeze, Beaufort 6). This is comparable to the heat produced by smaller boilers used for space heating. Between 1993 and 2000, the Danish company Westrup built a total of 34 wind turbines, 17 of which were still in operation in 2012. 7"

"A larger hydraulic brake wind turbine (7,5 meters in diameter, 17 meter mast) was built in 1982 by the Svaneborg brothers and heated the house of one of the two (while the other had opted for a wind turbine and an electric heating system). Composed of 3 blades made of fiberglass, the wind turbine produced up to 8 kilowatts of heat, according to unofficial measurements – which is comparable to the power delivered by the electric boiler of a small detached house. 7"


(Source: https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/fr/20 ... dmill.html)
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«There are those who see things as they are and wonder why. Me, I see them as they could be and I say to myself: why not! (Sir Bernard Shaw)
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Re: Watermill, hydropower and central heating




by sicetaitsimple » 17/05/23, 11:26

Yes so so. I don't really want to go back to debates like those we had on the Solenco Power box.
I just notice that you mix everything up, intentionally or not. Because in your first post, you write:
"In view of the following, this type of wind turbine which produces heat directly, appears to be without doubt the best solution: "This technology has a yield 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, that is to say involving the stage of conversion into electricity"."
whereas what is written in your article is:
"Lthermal solar energy can be used to produce domestic hot water, heating or industrial processes. In addition, this technology yields 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, i.e. involving the stage of conversion into electricity."

What are you talking about? Solar thermal or wind?

I leave you to your delirium, have quotes and performance calculations made for "your project" (provided you find suppliers), and in 4 years you will come back and tell us that well, no, in fact ""It was not depreciable."
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Re: Watermill, hydropower and central heating




by BaudouinLabrique » 17/05/23, 12:04

sicetaitsimple wrote:Yes so so. I don't really want to go back to debates like those we had on the Solenco Power box.
I just notice that you mix everything up, intentionally or not. Because in your first post, you write:
"In view of the following, this type of wind turbine which produces heat directly, appears to be without doubt the best solution: "This technology has a yield 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, that is to say involving the stage of conversion into electricity"."
whereas what is written in your article is:
"Lthermal solar energy can be used to produce domestic hot water, heating or industrial processes. In addition, this technology yields 2 to 3 times higher compared to the indirect version, i.e. involving the stage of conversion into electricity."

What are you talking about? Solar thermal or wind?

I leave you to your delirium, have quotes and performance calculations made for "your project" (provided you find suppliers), and in 4 years you will come back and tell us that well, no, in fact ""It was not depreciable."


If you had taken the trouble to read what was under the links you could have learned that a group of Parisian students succeeded in producing domestic hot water from what is proposed as a study: https://avenir-ingenierie.fr/wp-content ... otEole.pdf and from the following university study: https://www.retrouversonnord.be/Eolienne-thermique.pdf
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«There are those who see things as they are and wonder why. Me, I see them as they could be and I say to myself: why not! (Sir Bernard Shaw)
« The future belongs to those who see the possibilities before they become obvious. (Theodore Levitt).

 


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