Water mill, hydropower and central heating

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patrice24
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by patrice24 » 24/02/12, 13:23

phil53 wrote:As long as to make electricity as much to use it for a nobler cause than heating!

what for example??
fridge? Congelo? TV?
I try to give priority to what costs me the most and rots our environment the most ie diesel
it seems to me to make economic sense, right? other noble ideas? I'll take it

on the power side, the mill was turning millstones of + s tonnes, I do not worry too much therefore, that being I will try to calculate by measuring the flow of the river at the valves.
Do I have to measure this with open valves?
but before in X or after in Y because the speed is not at all the same.
As for the fall must I take into account H1 or H2 (ref my drawing)
Image
thank you for your expertise
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 24/02/12, 13:46

I saw a mill with several wheels as heavy whose wheel is no more than 5hp ...

note the power of the mills which have not been running for a long time increase with each sale

we also confuse power of the turbine and power of the river: there have been mills with a turbine fesant 20ch but emptying the reach in an hour ... and then much more

calculate the available power of the river: estimate the flow

there are many ways to measure flow

choose a place where the river has a regular shape like a canal, throw a floating object and time time to make a certain distance: does that mean a speed? multiply by the section of the river to have the flow ... you don't need an object that floats too well and gets pushed by the wind, you need a big thing that fits well in the water, a log, a bag almost entirely full of water

another method, to pass all the flow of the river by a valve: by measuring the passage section, and by estimating the speed one can calculate the flow ... the speed can be estimated by the height of water which pushes in the passage

the power is the flow multiplied by the pressure therefore the height of fall

to have the maximum power it is necessary to raise the level to the maximum in the reach ... often when a mill has not been used for a long time it is impossible to do at the level provided without flooding certain neighbor

the downstream level must also be as low as possible: the turbine outlet channel must be well dredged until far enough downstream of the mill ... otherwise the downstream level rises and the power drops

conclusion when we put a mill back into service we often have a much lower power than when it was in service ... we do not necessarily obtain the authorization to do the work to put it back in its original state
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by chatelot16 » 24/02/12, 13:57

patrice24 wrote:
phil53 wrote:As long as to make electricity as much to use it for a nobler cause than heating!

what for example??


I don't really think your mill will make enough power for electric heating

but it is quite possible that it makes all year round an average power higher than 1kw, and a peak power largely higher thanks to the accumulation of water in the reach

it is therefore possible to be completely autonomous in electricity and to do without electrical subscription completely

it is also possible to operate a water heat pump

thanks to the presence of water as a cold source never too cold it gives a COP much higher than what we usually have, and the power of a turbine too weak to make a direct electric heating can be enough for a heat pump

a good alternator has a large inertia and a large capacity to start the PAC compressors ... no need for an oversized electric subscription as we often need for certain PAC
Last edited by chatelot16 the 24 / 02 / 12, 14: 01, 1 edited once.
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by dedeleco » 24/02/12, 14:00

It is rather the difference in water level before after H1-Y, Y being the water depth after.

This fixes the pressure difference between before and after, which gives static force without movement.

The flow is to be measured, at least in order of magnitude, if it is several m3 / s over days ????

Everything then depends on the efficiency of the impeller or the turbine.
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patrice24
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by patrice24 » 24/02/12, 17:58

Let's go for power calculations
River is about 30m wide
1,5M depth on average
current speed let's be pessimistic and consider period excluding floods 0.2metre / sec

Flow = 30 x 1,5 x 0,2 = 9 m3 / sec = 9000 L / s
Power = flow x Height or 9000 x 0.5 to take a low level (effect the breach that can be seen on the phto keeps the water level before the dam relatively low.
Power = 4500 Lm / s
1 liter water = 1Kg
Power = 9000Kg.m / s

In steam horse it must be 9000/75 = 120
1CV is roughly equal to 1KW therefore 120KW
Let's be conservative and say that I lose half of the power it must remain 60Kw
Not bad is not it? Unless I missed a step
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by chatelot16 » 24/02/12, 19:37

your way of calculating is original but not wrong

1 liter is good 1kg and you calculate your power in kg m / s which is an old power unit

the current power unit the W could be called N m / s

as 1kg = 9,81 Newton tes 9000 kg m / s make 88290w therefore 88kw

your passage by the ch gives 120ch
and as 1ch = 735W
120ch x 735 = 88200W ... we agree

remains to estimate the yield
turbine 60% at least ... we can even do better so if your data is true 88kw x 0,6 = 52kw

20% wheel ... and it's often worse ... and it's only the efficiency of the wheel, which turns very slowly, which requires a complicated transmission to multiply the speed until you want an alternator

attention to the measurement of elevation: it is especially not the difference between the bottom of the river upstream and downstream as on your drawing: it is the difference between the surface of the water upstream and downstream

building a 52kw turbine is no small task ... it would be safer to start with a much smaller one
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by the middle » 25/02/12, 07:48

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Hello




by dani38 » 25/02/12, 13:42

hello, already great to have bought this mill, it will not remain abandoned, after the idea and good to manufacture are current, heating ect, I will have a mill I will be super happy, myself I try to make electricity with lots of ideas I try, wind turbine with cans ect, you can try to find lots of ideas with recuperated in the dumps, for the water calculations must do them, me what would interest me these the rear view of the mill at the exit of water is there a big difference from the exit of the mill and the low part where this throws the water or the water joins the river, on the photo at the back of the mill we see a lot of tree, I think of the difference in level which will have come out of the mill at the bottom or this water in the river, if you can make a photo or two, I think of a waterfall (see on the drawing) make a forced pipe? or with u-shaped boards but very simple to try, make an eoliene with cans as I did you but horizontally its make you a paddle wheel I put a 24 volt 250 watt trinet motor I make the radiator wires blush with while waiting to make you a real wheel, I have a brucheless triphase of 4 kilos watt hour if it's yours interested?
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Hello again




by dani38 » 26/02/12, 11:34

artwork pic705.jpg.gif
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Did67
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by Did67 » 26/02/12, 12:40

Gained speed!

1) This waterfall has its maximum flow at times when the need for heating is perhaps not very important (conventionally, in spring-rain and snowmelt, depending on location; autumn).

I think it is a shame not to turbinate the water 24 hours a day, 24 days a year, and sell this electricity (the price of which will go up!).

[of course in the event that it is authorized; but I think there is a usage right that you cannot take away like that - to check however first].

There are electric "micro-plants" specially designed for this: low head / high flow ...

2) For heating, which says rivers, says trees (especially alders). So the solution seems to me to be a woodchip boiler (given the power, it is suitable; in an old mill, there are probably spaces for storing woodchips) + a shredder and a chainsaw and an old tractor with fork reform and voila.

Now, I don't know if you own a "piece" of a river. Natural growth should be estimated ... Existence of other possibilities locally (forests?).

The "green" balance would seem to me otherwise more interesting: electric autonomy or even surplus of "green current" (to be calculated according to the flow / height), heating without CO² rejection ...

On the other hand, it is more technical, less "bricollo" ... From this point of view, less exciting, less "brilliant" (in the Geo Trouvetout sense).
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