Vortex to save fuel?

Tips, advice and tips to lower your consumption, processes or inventions as unconventional engines: the Stirling engine, for example. Patents improving combustion: water injection plasma treatment, ionization of the fuel or oxidizer.
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Did67
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Re: Vortex to save fuel?




by Did67 » 23/10/16, 10:31

Janic wrote:
these tests were unrealistic regardless of any cheat.


Yes.

Two things should not be confused:

- a test protocol to which manufacturers are subjected so "absurd" that I think that the results do not say much in "real" life; it is indeed a responsibility of the EU to define and impose protocols (identical for all so that the results are comparable between them); This has not been done ; and I think it's still a successful action from the builders lobby ...

- basically, each country has its manufacturers to defend (the French small diesel generators; the German Porsche and BMW, the Italian Fiat and Ferrari ...), it is the softest compromise that makes consensus ...

- it is even downright schizophrenic, because on the one hand, more and more severe standards (Euro VI) are "imposed", and on the other hand, the protocol for verifying it is totally lax; we came close to the fact that the emission control does not happen with the engine stopped! We could then have imposed Euro VII standards with 0% emission!

- VW's cheating is yet another thing, which is added to it! Despite this laxity, this builder had to cheat to "fit" into the standards, yet lax! Hat !!! "Das Auto", as they say! But "what Auto"!
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Re: Vortex to save fuel?




by Janic » 25/10/16, 17:54

izentrop hello
What does your VSLA look like and where is it placed?
Can you put pictures?
you will find 102 variations on this site already given:
http://quanthomme.free.fr/qhsuite/A.V.E ... EC2014.htm
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Re: Vortex to save fuel?




by izentrop » 25/10/16, 22:31

Janic wrote:izentrop hello
What does your VSLA look like and where is it placed?
Can you put pictures?
you will find 102 variations on this site already given:
http://quanthomme.free.fr/qhsuite/A.V.E ... EC2014.htm
Not the 102 variants, this is yours that I wanted to see.
Your link does not work but this one gives an idea of ​​what it is about http://quanthomme.free.fr/qhsuite/A.V.E ... anlucs.htm
As with everything on quanthomme, testers believe in it so much that they falsify the data without realizing it.
The car is a Citroën Xantia 1.9SD 180 Kms on the clock.
Normal consumption, 6.6 to 7 L / 100Km
With the "WITH" we did 1150km with 60 liters of Diesel, or 5.217 L / 100Km ...
I confirm consumption about 5L / 100Km instead of 7l / 100Km.
Without artifice, with my fiesta 1.9D I consume 5,05 l / 100 km fluently.
To see the contraption, as it is installed in the admission, indeed if a piece comes off ... hello damage in the engine.
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Re: Vortex to save fuel?




by Flytox » 25/10/16, 22:57

Turbulence can have a very big influence on combustion, pollution performance, but depending on where it is produced (at the valve or upstream vortex etc) the result can be very different in one direction or another. .etc ... There are elements of answer there: (not yet had time to analyze : Mrgreen: )

https://books.google.fr/books?id=yXHV6YcbMhgC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=soupape+turbulente&source=bl&ots=fRi1vpNhcj&sig=gGzt280AFw0xFrMWZZ8wFAMJOxM&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjk1N-b5PbPAhUCuBoKHZnZBrQQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=soupape%20turbulente&f=false
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Re: Vortex to save fuel?




by izentrop » 26/10/16, 07:06

From what I understand, the document says that:
  1. Turbulence takes place in the combustion chamber
  2. It is generated by the intake valve and also depends on the geometry of this chamber
  3. It must be optimized to be effective
  4. Adding external turbulence would therefore be counterproductive
Or is placed WITH, I do not see the action that it can have of beneficial in this device.
At first glance, it has a shape that reduces the air intake surface: It is feared a lack of power at high speed and at altitude, like a dirty air filter. :(
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Re: Vortex to save fuel?




by Janic » 26/10/16, 09:12

izentrop hello
Not the 102 variants, this is yours that I wanted to see.

Start by consulting TOUS the 102 in question. If there was an ideal type all would have done the same, but this is not the case. So try your own!
Your link does not work but this one gives an idea what is it

http://quanthomme.free.fr/qhsuite/A.V.E ... anlucs.htm
Superficial or deep?
As with everything on quanthomme, testers believe in it so much they falsify the data without realizing it.
Without artifice, with my fiesta 1.9D I consume 5,05 l / 100 km fluently.

Always the same thing ! It is not on ONE case that we must pretend, but on the whole with its successes and its failures and there are! Who says you don't falsify your results?
To see the contraption, as it is installed in the admission, indeed if a piece comes off ... hello damage in the engine.

With a sufficiently thick VSLA (1mm / 1.5mm is sufficient) there is no risk of detaching a piece (like VSLAs made with cans at the start.) On all of the testimonials NONE mentions that this had happened. Mechanics don't seem to be your strong point!
Finally, instead of criticize, as usual, what you don't know: roll up your sleeves and do your own tests.
From what I understand, the document says that:

You have, once again, misunderstood
1. Turbulence takes place in the combustion chamber

No, it takes place at the outlet of the vortex wherever it is placed and extends into the combustion chamber. The swirl * effect that some manufacturers are looking for to create a sort of vortex in the combustion chamber for better distribution of the fuel, is less good than with a AVEC.
2. It is generated by the intake valve and also depends on the geometry of this chamber

Always no! Neither the intake valve nor the combustion chamber have any influence since on old models with various shapes, the system therefore works independently of the valves or shapes of the chamber (it goes without saying that if it has already a form studied to promote better combustion, the difference will be less noticeable)
3. It must be optimized to be effective

Optimized means nothing in this case since no "optimized" model exists because from one vehicle to another, such a form can work for one and not for the other.
4. Adding external turbulence would therefore be counterproductive

Still ignorance! In flow of fluids; there is either a laminar, non-turbulent flow, or a turbulent flow which impedes the flow of fluids. A vortex does not create turbulence, on the contrary, it promotes a more laminar flow, but in a vortex.
Who has not noticed the flow of water in a sink, which is turbulent, then turns into a vortex (which we can also initiate voluntarily) and the flow takes place much faster without its glou- usual glous (sign of turbulence).
Or is placed WITH, I do not see the action that it can have of beneficial in this device.

Because you talk in a vacuum (like those who talk about homeopathy without ever having tried it)
At first glance, it has a shape that reduces the air intake surface: It is feared a lack of power at high speed and at altitude, like a dirty air filter.

Once again it does not reduce the air intake (removing 2 mm on the diameter) influences much less than the shape of the rubber hoses, the shapes of the intake pipes and even more the valves themselves.
All testers, having found the right model for their vehicle, found the opposite, more torque; As for the high speed, apart from gear changes and you must have sensitive driving (lack of measuring equipment) to make the difference, the power is done at medium speed between 2500 and 3500 rpm for the majority of vehicles that the average population owns.

*In fluid dynamics, the swirl is an aerodynamic phenomenon used in internal combustion engines. This involves giving the fresh gases, introduced into the combustion chamber of the engine during the intake phase, a speed of rotation around an axial axis to that of the cylinder1 in order to improve the homogeneity of the air mixture. -fuel in the combustion chamber. The combustion speed thus improved, the combustion efficiency of the engine is better; for a spark-ignition engine, the knock sensitivity is also reduced since the flame front travels more quickly through the combustion chamber. wikipedia

END of subject controversy TE concerning!

Hello flitox
Turbulence can have a very big influence on combustion, pollution performance, but depending on where it is produced (at the valve or upstream vortex etc) the result can be very different in one direction or another. .etc ... There are elements of answer there: (not yet had time to analyze)

Absolutely ! Apart from a very clear improvement noted by many users, it is very difficult to establish a rule which would be valid for all (even the manufacturers wade through most of their tests, punctual elsewhere). For my own consideration (which is no more a standard) no matter where the AVEC is, even located before the air filter which could be supposed to interfere with the vortex; see even the number of VSDs placed (you can place up to nine), the number of fins, their levorotatory or dextrorotatory direction, their length, their curvature, their material, etc ... their one and only point common: create a vortex!
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Re: Vortex to save fuel?




by izentrop » 26/10/16, 10:36

Janic wrote:The swirl * effect that some manufacturers are looking for to create a sort of vortex in the combustion chamber for better distribution of the fuel, is less good than with a AVEC.
The DIY enthusiast of a higher level than the lab engineer?
doubtful.jpg
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Re: Vortex to save fuel?




by Janic » 26/10/16, 12:37

The DIY enthusiast of a higher level than the lab engineer?
It is not a question of inferior or superior, but of different!
Christophe followed the Gillier Pantone case very closely, Gillier "being only" a farmer, not a lab engineer, which did not prevent engineers from coming to try to understand this phenomenon of an amateur handyman. .
Not all engineers are ingenious automatically! Furthermore, vortex effects are known to specialists, even if certain phenomena can disturb conservative minds. But stop arguing and get down to business!
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Re: Vortex to save fuel?




by izentrop » 26/10/16, 12:52

Janic wrote:But stop arguing and get down to business!
For what to do, my car consumes little as long as I adopt a flexible driving. The state wants to give me a bonus if I buy an electric, but hey! as long as it rolls, let's wait and see. : Wink:
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Re: Vortex to save fuel?




by Janic » 26/10/16, 18:45

Janic wrote:
But stop arguing and get down to business!

For what to do, my car consumes little as long as I adopt a flexible driving. The state wants to give me a bonus if I buy an electric, but hey! as long as it rolls, let's wait and see.
Clearly this does not interest you (the question not being on consumption, but on CO pollution) to pollute less! It’s your right, by the way! But then do not intervene on a subject that you ignore and that you want to continue to ignore by passing judgments (it is neither the first nor the last time, we can count on it!) On those who THEY are getting at work.
Your thinking, moreover, is typical of what has been blamed on you at other times, namely that it does not matter to others as long as you find satisfaction in your ego ... and it was Obamot who was put in ban! : Cry:
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