Is it necessary to work gratis unemployed (TIG)

[Obamot]

I think unemployment and wanted by capitalist governments (right or left) and I would say even maintained because it allows to divide the people and put people one against the other
divide and rule
lionel

Unemployment is directly linked to the country's structural economy.
In France it fluctuates between 8 and 11% on average.
It is not entirely wrong to speak of "wanted unemployment".
I would rather say "opportunistic unemployment", because at a high rate, it represents a form of fear for the employee,who even poorly paid, should not complain about his situation...
Unemployment thus represents a form of unacknowledged repression of the economic system.
In a consumer society that pushes compulsive buying, how can you be motivated by work (very often uninteresting) that cannot even satisfy this (false) need?
It is not surprising then to see a growing renunciation, towards work.

Excellent Sen-no-Sen, is this a personal reflection or do you have some documentary source (s)?

[chatelot16]

unemployment is a big pressure on those who are still working

but those who believe in profiting from it are like that. Even the worst dictator would find a more effective way of making people work for his benefit.

unemployment for all

to say that the state cannot become an employer is a shame! what is it now by paying people unnecessarily? even worse than unnecessarily, harmful! paying people by making them feel guilty ... by making them believe that if they are still unemployed it is because of insufficient diploma ... or lack of mobility

mobility? the obstacle to mobility is the housing shortage! building housing will be doubly a remedy against unemployment! by hiring people to build, and by facilitating mobility

[Obamot]

Humanly and for the rest, we agree. Does this mean that all workers are unanimously ready to "take sufficient charge" and calm down with a magic wand of one - whatever happens - this sort of "claimant clamor" Who drives some people? ((And this, just to make such a challenge fair and possible. I have doubts about that, if you know what I mean ... but I haven't found "other words to express the bottom of my thoughts ...")

I dare not even approach the question of the abolition of "private property"... or at least its drop in surplus value in the circumstances described ... This is another debate, certainly related. Since there are indeed attempts in this area => responsibility of the regions to ensure that the "real estate market" offers a sufficient number of available housing: this has not been sufficiently followed up by 'after what we have seen in the press ... Yet these are measures written into the law ... it seems to me!

[chatelot16]

I'm not talking about the abolition of private property! i'm just talking about well placed housing

currently there are suburbs without work and industrial zones without housing ... and one wonders what is wrong!

and there are industrial wasteland where there is nothing at all, neither factory nor housing: there is therefore plenty of room to renovate! but not just how: with the skills to do better than usual

[sen-no-sen]

Excellent Sen-no-Sen, is this a personal reflection or do you have some documentary source (s)?

A simple observation, unfortunately ...
A lot of people around me work to pay their bills, nothing more, I don't know many who "have fun at work".
The over-development of the tertiary sector with its string of toilets jobs (fast food, telephone call reception center, advertising, mass distribution ...) paid at a discount do not allow reaching the advocated "Eldorado" by the mass media.
No wonder so many disillusioned and disillusioned people turn to inactivity because "what is the point of breaking your ass working 8 hours a day, for, in the end, to have pissing"...
I am wrong?

[Obamot]

Excellent Sen-no-Sen, is this a personal reflection or do you have some documentary source (s)?

A simple observation, unfortunately ...
A lot of people around me work to pay their bills, nothing more, I don't know many who "have fun at work".

Exactly haha!

The over-development of the tertiary sector with its string of toilets jobs (fast food, telephone call reception center, advertising, mass distribution ...) paid at a discount do not allow reaching the advocated "Eldorado" by the mass media.

Correct for me too: I have been relatively "working" on the subject for… ~ 4 years (so to speak ... ) and it is perfectly the synthesis that I have in some respects !!!

No wonder so many disillusioned and disillusioned people turn to inactivity because "what is the point of breaking your ass working 8 hours a day, for, in the end, to have pissing"...
I am wrong?

For the rest I answered and I do it in detail below ... But this last point gives another light on your first analysis, by specifying certain points:

Unemployment is directly linked to the country's structural economy.
In France it fluctuates between 8 and 11% on average.
It is not totally wrong to speak of "wanted unemployment".
I would rather say "opportunistic unemployment", because at a high rate, it represents a form of fear for the employee, who even poorly paid, should not complain about his situation ...
Unemployment thus represents a form of unacknowledged repression of the economic system.

At first glance, for this to be the case (and taking into account the elements that you give) there would have to be voluntary interventionism in this regard, but obviously the key to the enigma is upstream ...

I do not think that you are much mistaken, and curiously by going to snoop in the Carnets of the economy of Jacques Attali (... or elsewhere) it should be possible to postpone the plot until the very springs of "the market economy"... even if it will not be easy to do. This is also the question I was asking myself today on the organization of the economic fabric of companies (and in particular SAs and their functioning around "dividends" to shareholders ... which is a form "subjugation de facto consented " double-edged ...) VS "the universal dividend" (as recalled by Bernardd who is asked to visit the parlor! ... but I admit that I have not yet studied this question in depth ...) So I would avoid the paradigm of throwing all the evils of society on this one "spring" ...

Besides, what about the debt and the functioning of SAs and dividends? If debt increases ... Dividends decrease ... Don't understand! There's something that escapes me! Although the dishonest aim of some, could be to put the company in financial difficulties ... to better take control of it afterwards! (Known cases in printing with naives ... in my corner ...)
Along the same lines, banks are playing "I hold you by the goatee" with companies by going overbidding ... thanks to skilful calculations on the results (since they have all the balance sheets ... the big drums)

[Rabbit]

The day when the unemployed will have to work without pay other than
their unemployment benefits workers will know what to have
fear in the stomach mean when their boss tells them they are
vire because there are unemployed people who work for less in
being more motivated and replaceable at will, they will understand that they will have
dig their own grave. They too will in the short term be
"rots" / "profiteers" / "abusers", etc. of the unemployed condemned to
works to keep their allowances.
Think about the consequences of the implementation of FTAs, interim payments and service vouchers which have become the rule.
intimates who are despised and replaced by turns of arms by making them
shine an improbable CDD. Tell yourself that you might well
find their place. Now imagine that they are unemployed
that cost nothing. Does that make you sweat? Well let's see
already a reality. What do you think are PFIs?

Work is no longer a right but has become a privilege

Should the unemployed work at a discount? I think it takes
do it to quickly forget the achievements of the post-war period.
logic of an unrestrained capitalism.

[Obamot]

The day when the unemployed will have to work without pay other than
their unemployment benefits workers will know what to have
fear in the belly mean. When their boss tells them they are
vire because there are unemployed people who work for less in
being more motivated and replaceable at will, they will understand that they will have dug their own grave.

Well seen! It reminds me that in my corner very recently, "el pueblo" voted for reduction benefits unemployment ... Like what, workers do not need help to saw the branch on which they are sitting ... they do it very well themselves (And this is not the first time that 'he is being manipulated by the common people the last was the reduction of the duration ...). In France, apparently everyone had voted for THIS government, the same one that pushed back the retirement age ... By the way, weren't there socialists also called in the government? Well then? Why we go down the street AFTER, we shouldn't vote for them BEFORE! There was François Bayrou if we didn't like the socialists ...
It also reminds me of the snub thrown at Jospin ...
Are we not heading straight for an "American" model?
The United States is not left out with the Congress which has just passed back to the Republicans, barely two years after the stock market crash of 2008 ... While historically, it was the first time that the Americans had finally obtained a "social coverage" ... I would remember all my life these patients without sufficient resources, queuing in front of field hospitals on American soil itself ...
The Americans would be better off grilling fish instead of hamburger ... they would have a better memory! The "weight" they have already lost, in the eyes of world opinion, it seems ...

Lasts life!

[sen-no-sen]

Are we not heading straight for an "American" model?
The United States is not left out with the Congress which has just passed back to the Republicans, barely two years after the stock market crash of 2008 ... While historically, it was the first time that the Americans had finally obtained a "social Security"...

Indeed it is distressing! Especially since the "crash" was caused by its same Republicans (the credit companies were among the most important "donors" of the bush clan during its campaign) ...

Ricans better grill fish instead of hamburger ... they would have a better memory!

I think the French should do it too!

[Ahmed]

@Phil53 :

Obviously I made a shortcut /…

Everyone makes shortcuts, on a forum it is the necessity of the genre and it is true that it is sometimes difficult to avoid approximations, or worse, misinterpretations…

As for the workers, they destroyed the machines because they saw it as an unfair competitor who took their job.

That's exactly what I said, in another form.

To my knowledge there has been no revolt to say the machines work for us so we work less.

No, of course, since the machines don't work for workers ...

I followed your judicious advice and read (it's been a long time since I wanted to do it) "The right to laziness", a vigorous pamphlet which, despite a very marked historical context, retains a good part of its corrosive substance.
However, I regret an ambiguity when he evokes the vicious laziness of the bourgeois to oppose it to that, virtuous, of workers ...
His conclusion, with hindsight of experience, can also leave one dreamy when he proclaims that thanks to the machine human labor will be relieved (of course, it is from a socialist perspective, but the USSR that it does did not know, also celebrated the merits of intensive work [Cf. Stakhanov]).

Sen-no-sen wrote :

It is not entirely wrong to speak of "wanted unemployment".
I would rather say "opportunistic unemployment", because at a high rate, it represents a form of fear for the employee, who even poorly paid, should not complain about his situation ...
Unemployment thus represents a form of unacknowledged repression of the economic system.

It seems to me that the first sentence is a delicate understatement; indeed, faced with a shrinking job market, there was another possible choice than to split society into two: those who have a job and who are forced (as you analyze it very well) to make an effort ever more intensive, and those who are rejected on the margins and condemned to no longer be able to live with dignity.

This choice was to distribute the work in the least inequitable way possible. But, here again, just as it was deemed preferable for private companies to increase their profits by offshoring, discarding on the public sector to subsidize the unemployed, the choice was quickly made ...