totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!

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Re: Totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!




by Ahmed » 09/07/17, 20:28

An analysis fairly parallel to that of secularism could be made with regard to democracy. Far from the Manichean image presented by Exnihiloest, opposing a Western "inventor" of democracy and peoples incapable of functioning under this type of regime, it is obvious that Western democracies are only moved by dictatorships when it clashes with their economic interests: Saddam Hussein had been installed by the Americans, who liquidated it when it no longer corresponded to their expectations and the "restoration of democracy" was only the screen. The examples abound, the counter-examples also: the West actively supports Saudi Arabia and other states of the same style. Better still (if I dare say it!), When a society manages to free itself from a dictator, the West intervenes to "restore order" which is favorable to it (Chile, Venezuela, Africa ...) . Democracy, therefore, but with variable geometry and we can bet that soon it will be presented as an obstacle to competitiveness (since it is correlated with the economy) ... : roll: Culture therefore does not explain much, it is only a concept sufficiently vague to explain everything and its opposite ...
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Re: Totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!




by sen-no-sen » 09/07/17, 20:30

Janic wrote:Secularism existed long before any attempt at globalization. That some people then took it to justify a system is part of the human "habits" of appropriation.


What date?

You mix "monotheistic" religions and monotheism which declares a single source to the "real" world which is ours, independently of any representation (prohibited moreover because necessarily false)


It seems to me that there is a "small" relationship between the two ... : roll:


The Middle Ages, under civil and religious totalitarianism, had to seek to break out of the shackles imposed by these rulers, hence the reform movements repressed with the secular arm. Our society boasts of being democratic, liberal, tolerant after having for centuries suffered this yoke. Is there excess in the other direction? Inevitably! But backing up would be worse!


There was never any question of reversing, this would obviously not be desirable.
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Re: Totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!




by Janic » 10/07/17, 08:16

janic wrote: Secularism existed long before any attempt at globalization. That some people then took it to justify a system is part of the human "habits" of appropriation.

What date?

History
The concept of secularism has its roots in the writings of Greek and Roman philosophers, such as Marc Aurèle [ref. necessary] and Épicure9, those of Enlightenment thinkers like Locke, Bayle, Diderot, Voltaire, the founding fathers of the United States such as James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine, in France through the laws of Jules Ferry, as well as in the writings of modern free thinkers, agnostics and atheists, such as Bertrand Russell, Robert Ingersoll, Albert Einstein, and Sam Harris.
Contrary to popular belief, the concept of secularism was developed by scholars of various persuasions. Thus, Averroès, Andalusian Muslim philosopher and theologian of Arabic language in the 10,11,12th century, is also considered as one of the founding fathers of secular thoughtXNUMX [ref. insufficient].

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9
You mix "monotheistic" religions and monotheism which declares a single source to the "real" world which is ours, independently of any representation (prohibited moreover because necessarily false)

It seems to me that there is a "small" relationship between the two ...

Obviously! Just as there is a small (but all, very small) relationship between the communism of Marx and the totalitarian and terrorist communism of that of the USSR and which still endures, or even between a virgin and a prostitute.
The Middle Ages, under civil and religious totalitarianism, had to seek to break out of the shackles imposed by these rulers, hence the reform movements repressed with the secular arm. Our society boasts of being democratic, liberal, tolerant after having for centuries suffered this yoke. Is there excess in the other direction? Inevitably! But backing up would be worse!

There was never any question of reversing, this would obviously not be desirable.

This is however what some regret (follow my look ... even if it is not easy here!)! The inquisition was a great way to get rid of the annoyers, the impediments of dancing in circles with the help, the complicity, of the civil power as currently among some politicians.
We attribute (rightly or wrongly) this reflection of Hitler to whom his final solution was criticized: " I'm just finishing what you started By evoking that of this Inquisition. True or false, it was good that was happening! And some who voluntarily confuse violent extremists with the whole religious community (this one or another whatever, it is the attitude that is important) would like to get rid of the whole without distinction, as worthy heirs of the Inquisition as revolutionary terror.
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Re: Totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!




by sen-no-sen » 10/07/17, 12:25

Janic wrote:The concept of secularism has its roots in the writings of Greek and Roman philosophers (...)


I am not talking about the roots of secularism but of secularism itself as a guiding concept within a society.
Transhumanism for example has its roots in antiquity, just that ...!


Regarding the notion of monotheism "which declares" that a single source is the basis of our real world, I cannot agree with you.
Almost all religions / beliefs claim that our world emanates from a "Source" without being monotheistic.*.
The particularity of monotheism is to bring together the individuals of a community under the guise of a single god and those in order to guarantee a standardization (sorry for the term but that's what it is about) beliefs in order to guarantee cohesion within a large society.

And some who voluntarily confuse violent extremists with the whole religious community (this one or another whatever, it is the attitude that is important) would like to get rid of the whole without distinction, as worthy heirs of the Inquisition as revolutionary terror.


Violent extremists are the agents of a force acting within a thought system in a period of redefinition.
From this point of view there is an obvious link between the rise of fascism and the development of Islamic terrorism.

The phenomenon of current Islamic terrorism is to be linked to the expansion of exponential economism.
Why is Islam affected and not Judaism or Christianity (which are affected but to a much lesser extent)?
The most likely reason is related to the fact that Islam is the most monotheistic testament religion of the three and the youngest.
It is a totalizing religion, within which most of the social and political aspects are provided for by the texts, in order to guarantee the stability of the Ummah (the community of believers).

Except with the development of economism, Islam very quickly found itself in competition with a much more totalizing system of thought, which came to upset traditional patterns.
Faced with this invasion (in the strict sense as figuratively!), Currents within Islam were founded taking as a basis a literal reading of the texts, and advocating a return to a fundamental Islam.
In a way, the techno-economic hybrid of the liberal system is seen opposed to a strict religious equivalent, advocating paradise and eternal life to its martyrs.
If most of the victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslim, it is primarily because of an internal redefinition.
Agents who do not stick with the movement intended to straighten out the cause and to fight for it are considered as useless bullets which must be got rid of.
The goal is to constitute a hard core close to everything to avoid the solubility of Islam in economism.
In a way, it is a "swan song", the same phenomenon has been observed several times in history, especially in Japan with the Kamikazes.
Like a wounded beast, the system produces antibodies which will go to fight the enemy until death, the peculiarity resides here in the fact that the enemy is above all internal, as we have seen the essential (90% ) victims of terrorism are Muslim ...

But we can go even further, because it appears that terrorism takes its base (Al Qaida = the Base) within the very economy that it is supposed to fight (!).
Thus most of the current terrorist movements in Islam were born within the petro-monarchies of the Golf, even currents like the Egyptian Egyptian brothers are in fact only groups indirectly permeated by Westernism ...



*As the Brahman Hindu or the wakan tanka of the Sioux.
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Re: Totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!




by Janic » 10/07/17, 13:26

The phenomenon of Islamic terrorism today is to be linked to the expansion of exponential economism.
Why is Islam affected and not Judaism or Christianity (which are affected but to a much lesser extent)?

Because these cultures have also had their period of terrorism, which is more or less past, but they can return, like all revolutions, at the moment when we least expect them!
The most likely reason is related to the fact that Islam is the most monotheistic testament religion of the three and the youngest.

I do not think so ! The people "of the book", as they say, are like all the others, there are those who do the exegesis of the texts, in reference, and the multitude of others who wait for their work to be chewed and don't have more than to swallow effortlessly, otherwise daesh (as a self-decreed pseudo-religion) would not even have existed.
It is a totalizing religion, within which most of the social and political aspects are provided for by the texts, in order to guarantee the stability of the Ummah (the community of believers).

False idea because superficial, which does not want to see that, as I said, either a virgin or a prostitute in this family of thought. Whoever is familiar with the texts (of the double bible) the only one that I have really subjected to exegesis, strongly asserts the opposite, still it is necessary to take the time (which takes years) to do it, but so much of people are content with superficial shortcuts.
Except with the development of economism, Islam very quickly found itself in competition with a much more totalizing system of thought, which came to upset traditional patterns.
Faced with this invasion (in the strict sense as figuratively!), Currents within Islam were founded taking as a basis a literal reading of the texts, and advocating a return to a fundamental Islam.

Likewise, Islam is divided into two main currents with a part favorable to conquering violence, another part rather favorable to pacifism and yet fundamentalist too. (We still have to agree on the meaning given by some and the others at this term)
In a way, the techno-economic hybrid of the liberal system is seen opposed to a strict religious equivalent, advocating paradise and eternal life to its martyrs.

Except that historically it is the opposite that has and occurs "it is the law of the first occupant" of the Fountain, which prevails in general! On the other hand the paradise and its martyrs it is of cultural origin under a strong influence of Catholicism which had drawn that from other religions.
If most of the victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslim, it is primarily because of an internal redefinition.

There absolutely! If the West, out of economic interest (nothing else), had not sought to get its nose into matters which did not concern it, this terrorism which changes its name, form, place, would not have had place with us!
Agents who do not stick with the movement intended to straighten out the cause and to fight for it are considered as useless bullets which must be got rid of.

As has happened, and has happened, for heaps of millennia (see more according to the discourse of evolution) and this, whatever the pretext invoked, the reference to the religious is only anecdotal.
The goal is to constitute a hard core close to everything to avoid the solubility of Islam in economism.

This is what we tried to do the Indians of America or India and they lost their fight and their life.
In a way, it is a "swan song", the same phenomenon has been observed several times in history, especially in Japan with the Kamikazes.

Or the revolutionaries (in France to say the least!)
Like a wounded beast, the system produces antibodies which will go to fight the enemy until death, the peculiarity resides here in the fact that the enemy is above all internal, as we have seen the main point (90% ) victims of terrorism are Muslim ...

What began with the prophet, as in Judaism, as in "Christianity", as the French revolution which decimated its human brothers to dominate also and as always when the adversaries are decimated, the fighting ceases for lack of combatants.
But we can go even further, because it appears that terrorism takes its base (Al Qaida = the Base) within the very economy that it is supposed to fight (!).

Of course ! Money is the nerve of war, it's not new!

* Like the Hindu Brahman or the Wakan tanka of the Sioux.
Wakan-Tanka, the Great Spirit is God not only as the Creator and Lord, but also as the impersonal Essence. Wakan-Tanka can also be translated as Great Mystery, Great Mysterious Power or even Great Medicine. The Great Spirit is God not only as a Pure Principle, but also as a Manifestation.

This is exactly what emerges from the biblical texts in the absence of the religions themselves!
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Re: Totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!




by Ahmed » 10/07/17, 13:45

Sen-no-sen writing:
In a way, the techno-economic hybrid of the liberal system was confronted with a strict religious equivalent, advocating paradise and eternal life to its martyrs.

Janic, You answer:
Except that historically it is the opposite that has and occurs "it is the most of the first occupant" of the Fountain, which prevails in general!

Besides that your quote from Fountain is unclear, it appears that the religious equivalent in question was built in reaction to European economic expansion, therefore necessarily subsequent to the latter ...
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Re: Totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!




by Janic » 10/07/17, 14:11

Sen-no-sen writes:
In a way, the techno-economic hybrid of the liberal system was confronted with a strict religious equivalent, advocating paradise and eternal life to its martyrs.


Janic, you answer:
Except that historically it is the opposite that has and occurs "it is the most of the first occupant" of the Fountain, which prevails in general!
Besides that your quote from La Fontaine is unclear, it appears that the religious equivalent in question was built in reaction to European economic expansion, therefore necessarily subsequent to the latter ...

You are partly right: here is the part of the text that refers to it:
The Lady with a pointed nose replied that the earth
Was in the first occupant.
It was a beautiful subject of war
Only a home where he himself only entered by crawling.
And when it would be a kingdom
I would like to know, she said, which law
Has always granted it
To Jean fils or nephew of Pierre or Guillaume,
Rather than Paul, rather than me.
Jean Lapin alleged custom and usage.
It is, he says, their laws which have given me this home.
Made master and lord, and who from father to son,
Have it from Pierre to Simon, then to me Jean, transmitted.
Is the first occupant a wiser law?
There are two first occupants. The first being that of the musical chair, ""you left, I took the vacant place", opposed to transmission by laws, customs and uses.
So Islam is the first occupant according to Jean Lapin, economism intervenes like the weasel, it appropriates the place by justifying that it had remained free, but Jean Lapin does not agree and wants to recover his home, temporarily left free. We can continue the exegesis of the text until its end " who put the litigants in agreement by sketching one and the other"
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Re: Totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!




by sen-no-sen » 10/07/17, 14:19

Janic wrote:Likewise, Islam is divided into two main currents with a part favorable to conquering violence, another part rather favorable to pacifism and yet fundamentalist too. (We still have to agree on the meaning given by some and the others at this term)


Rather than talking about trends, I would talk about trends.
Islam is defined through two main streams: Sunni and Chiite.
We distinguish in the Koran two "approaches" that of Medina and that of Mecca, one being much more hawkish than the other, certainly linked to the fact that it was written in a more troubled historical period.
The interpretation of the texts that is made then again comes from a subjective vision and relating to the historical periods crossed.

Except that historically it is the opposite that has and occurs "it is the law of the first occupant" of the Fountain, which prevails in general!



Whether Islam predates economism has no importance, one must reason in terms of power and action / reaction.
We can distinguish a cultural field impregnated by the Muslim world which finds itself in a few years carrying the seeds of economism, this one develops like a virus and causes a cultural and economic modification which in turn leads to a "reaction".

Of course ! Money is the nerve of war, it's not new!


I was not talking about money here, but about economism.
As a reminder, exponential economism is a process based on technological development via an amplifying and totalizing economic expansion.
By assigning a selective advantage to its host, it is quickly copied and then copied again until it invades the whole world, so it is a system based on saturation, spatial, temporal and conceptual, it therefore goes far beyond the simple concept of money which is only one component of the so-called economism.

Wakan-Tanka, the Great Spirit is God not only as the Creator and Lord, but also as the impersonal Essence. Wakan-Tanka can also be translated as Great Mystery, Great Mysterious Power or even Great Medicine. The Great Spirit is God not only as a Pure Principle, but also as a Manifestation.


It is a very monotheistic definition of the term, normal because it is essentially Christians who studied the Amerindian culture first ...
Semantically speaking god is a reflection of man (of god semantic mix between Diurnus et Zeus)
Wakan Tanka is actually close to the concept of impermanence, it is a "spirit *" in perpetual transformation without form or beginning.

* Specter would be even more accurate.
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Re: Totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!




by Ahmed » 10/07/17, 14:34

I don't think that this parallel that you want to draw is very enlightening in this area. The religions of the book have coexisted with some conflicts, but it is the emergence of an expansionist economy within some of these religions (and not in the land of Islam) which is the cause of a new orientation towards fundamentalism. religious; other forms of reaction would just as easily have emerged instead of that ...

Edit: I see that Sen-no-sen responded perfectly on this point.

Sen-no-sen, you write:
By assigning a selective advantage to its host it (exponential economism) is quickly copied, then copied again, until invading the whole world ...

This is true as a concept, but it should be noted that the model is not infinitely transposable in reality, since it is based on the principle of competition: each productive advance by one country devalues ​​the capacities of another all the more, which explains the decline in identity which is only the expression of an unfulfilled mimetic desire.
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Re: Totalitarian architecture, they will destroy Mecca!




by sen-no-sen » 10/07/17, 16:23

Ahmed wrote:Sen-no-sen, you write:
By assigning a selective advantage to its host it (exponential economism) is quickly copied, then copied again, until invading the whole world ...

This is true as a concept, but it should be noted that the model is not infinitely transposable in reality, since it is based on the principle of competition: each productive advance by one country devalues ​​the capacities of another all the more, which explains the decline in identity which is only the expression of an unfulfilled mimetic desire.


We agree, the fact remains that economism, once established, metastasized, hardly allows us to go back.
National populism is based on the idea of ​​being able to thwart this tendency to competition, it is obviously an illusion which only promotes the tendency to war.
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