The benefits of organic food, questioned

[Former Oceano]

But no ! These are not Bucheron's tools!
Bucheron is in the middle with the double ax!
On the left with the mace it is his Dad, and on his right with the scythe it is his wife ...

[C moa]

A quick note just in passing and for info, I have not read the x previous pages but only the first.

Studies are like numbers, we can make them say what we want, after everyone is free to say good or bad or even make another contradictory that's how the debate advanced.

Beyond this preamble, there is nevertheless important information that is given from this study. No offense to many, organic is ultimately not better than conventional (I put aside the intensive of course) it's just that it's less bad (compared to pesticides for example still present in products ...).

Basically, I am not against organic but I am not a priori either.

Why ??
1- Like any product which becomes fashionable, there are financial aspects which come into play and which come to pollute the (very good) idea of ​​departure. Today we find organic strawberries in January and who crossed the seas to reach our shelves. The example of the Dead Sea that I am going to present to you right after is also an example of the worst that organic can do.
2- I have very good producers of meat (poultry, pork and cattle), fruits and vegetables (of all kinds and in season) near my home which do not make organic for the most part but which do not no more of the silly intensive. It is a conventional local agriculture, reasoned and of quality. If I take back the lumberjack items, I can also +1 them everywhere.
3- I never really understood why organic was (much) more expensive. Indeed, all the organic farmers with whom I discussed it on the markets told me that the production is lower (maximum 20% from what I have heard) and therefore that to earn as much, you have to that they charge more. Certainly, but every time I started to point out to them that the operating costs are also much lower compared to a traditional operation, their reaction is not long in coming, at the beginning they listen patiently and argue but when I insist and that I ask them for figures (especially those which have gone from one to the other), they end up getting carried away and the argument that often comes up is "well it's okay keep going. buy your crap and pollute the planet !!!
My questions are always the same so I submit them to you. If there are no pesticides, you should not buy them, you should not spread them so you need fewer machines, it is less time spent, so it is less overall charges (the diesel / fuel oil for example is a big budget in a farm). How much do these savings represent on the whole farm? Does this compensate for the 20% lack of production (AMHA largely) ?? Why is the price difference often double or more in this case?

I insist, I am not against organic but I wonder. Especially when I read articles like the one that appeared in the geo of June.
In short, the waters of the Dead Sea have something like 25 minerals, 15 of which are only found in this region. They are known for the good effects on rheumatism and a whole bunch of other problems.

The level of the dead sea drops by 20 cm per year. Certainly, it is partly due to the production of potash and salt which has exploded in recent decades but it is mainly due to the production intense in the middle of the desert of tomatoes and cucumbers BIO to Europe.
Indeed, the Jordan which fed the Dead Sea until then is now only a small stream because more than 80% of the water is diverted by neighboring countries for this production.

It is certain that in the desert we do not need pesticides too much but is it very reasonable to irrigate the desert in the name of organic ?? Without counting the impact of transport, distribution, overproduction necessary to compensate for losses ...

The situation is so worrying that some would like to "rehydrate" the Dead Sea. For this two solutions, either we stop this agriculture intensive organic, or we bring the water elsewhere.

You will understand, this is not the first solution that is chosen. A consortium has started to think about the possibility of installing a pipeline between the Mediterranean and the Dead Sea. As in addition the Mediterranean is higher than the Dead Sea, they would like to install turbines to generate electricity which will supply ... the potash factories.

The problem is that the Dead Sea has always been supplied with fresh water (the Jordan) and that we have absolutely no idea what can happen by adding sea water. This will most certainly destabilize the local ecosystem which, let us recall, is unique in the world in many aspects ....

I know that similar situations exist in Spain and Morocco but I have no sources ....

[Woodcutter]

[...] Beyond this preamble, there is nevertheless an important information which is given of this study. No offense to many, organic is ultimately not better than conventional (I put aside the intensive of course) it's just that it's less bad (compared to pesticides for example still present in products ...).

So we will repeat for toa ...

Nobody says that organic, from a nutritional point of view, (this is what is explained in the article) is better than conventional.
The benefits of organic are not there and they were developed throughout the pages of this post ...

[...]Why ??
1- Like any product which becomes fashionable, there are financial aspects which come into play and which come to pollute the (very good) idea of ​​departure. Today we find organic strawberries in January and who crossed the seas to reach our shelves.

As with the corn mentioned a few pages before, I don't think it is very appropriate to cite counter-examples to argue an idea ...

The sale of vegetables out of season which have made huge trips, is a drift from the current consumption system ...
When we take the step of buying organic because we are aware of the benefits, we must be intelligent enough to push the reasoning to the end and realize that we can consume "naturally" (by respecting the cycle of seasons and / or local production)

[...] 3- I never really understood why organic was (much) more expensive. Indeed, all the organic farmers with whom I discussed it on the markets told me that the production is lower (maximum 20% from what I have heard) and therefore that to earn as much, you have to that they charge more. Certainly, but every time I started to point out to them that the operating costs are also much lower compared to a traditional operation, their reaction is not long in coming, at the beginning they listen patiently and argue but when I insist and that I ask them for figures (especially those which have gone from one to the other), they end up getting carried away and the argument that often comes up is "well it's okay keep going. buy your crap and pollute the planet !!!
My questions are always the same so I submit them to you. If there are no pesticides, you should not buy them, you should not spread them so you need fewer machines, it is less time spent, so it is less overall charges (the diesel / fuel oil for example is a big budget in a farm). How much do these savings represent on the whole farm? Does this compensate for the 20% lack of production (AMHA largely) ?? Why is the price difference often double or more in this case ?? [...]

What exactly are you comparing? Supermarket shit or a small local production?
As far as I know (market gardening) the cost comes to about 80% of the MO cost because of the "care" to be brought to the crops, which is done by hand or with small mechanical means, which is much more expensive than excessive mechanization.

I insist, I am not against organic but I wonder. Especially when I read articles like the one that appeared in the geo of June.
In short, the waters of the Dead Sea have something like 25 minerals, 15 of which are only found in this region. They are known for the good effects on rheumatism and a whole bunch of other problems.

The level of the dead sea drops by 20 cm per year. Certainly, it is partly due to the production of potash and salt which has exploded in recent decades but it is mainly due to the production intense in the middle of the desert of tomatoes and cucumbers BIO to Europe.
Indeed, the Jordan which fed the Dead Sea until then is now only a small stream because more than 80% of the water is diverted by neighboring countries for this production.

It is certain that in the desert we do not need pesticides too much but is it very reasonable to irrigate the desert in the name of organic ?? Without counting the impact of transport, distribution, overproduction necessary to compensate for losses ...

The situation is so worrying that some would like to "rehydrate" the Dead Sea. For this two solutions, either we stop this agriculture intensive organic, or we bring the water elsewhere.

I don't see the connection with organic farming? Do you think it would be different with conventional intensive?
Israeli "collective farms" were set up in the middle of the desert long before the boom in organic farming, it's completely a false problem ...

[C moa]

The sale of vegetables out of season which have made huge trips, is a drift from the current consumption system ...
When we take the step of buying organic because we are aware of the benefits, we must be intelligent enough to push the reasoning to the end and realize that we can consume "naturally" (by respecting the cycle of seasons and / or local production)

That's the whole problem, with totally organic fashion, many are "abused". They are convinced by what they have seen / read / heard that it is necessarily good for health and the environment.
This idea is reinforced by the idea of ​​the AB label. To make it simple or even simplet, in the minds of many, organic is necessarily flawless and going against this idea is often for them a sign that we are against organic and therefore for GMOs, the intensive ....

There is still work to be done in terms of education on this point unfortunately those who hold this sector do not do it.

What exactly are you comparing? Supermarket shit or a small local production?

Oooooh, you insult my intellectual honesty there Of course I compare what is comparable. And in my village on the banks of the Loire in Anjou it's quite easy because we often have producers from "both camps" on the same markets.
When you buy on one side a kg of apples "at the price of Leclerc" and on the other the double, I say to myself look for the error because be sure that the apples of the first are much better than the made in Leclerc or carechour (I make compote without added sugar with ).
I had already spoken about it but I put back the link because I find that it is a good example of what we can find with us. http://www.fermeduchardonnet.fr/accueil

They are not more expensive than the big box stores and they make quality products. How do they do ?? They eliminated all the intermediaries ....

As far as I know (market gardening) the cost comes to about 80% of the MO cost because of the "care" to be brought to the crops, which is done by hand or with small mechanical means, which is much more expensive than excessive mechanization.

Somewhere you bring water to my mill.
Personally, based on your data, I think that the cost price is made up as follows:
- 80% of the OM;
- 5% for water and electricity;
- 5% for seeds;
- 10% for phytosanitary treatments;

So 10% to save on treatment costs - 20% less production, this gives us a gap of 10%.
I would be a good prince, I even agree to consider a difference of 15% because I am not completely sure of the distribution. We are far from the 100% more expensive that we often have on the sale price ...
With margins like these, it's not surprising that these remain elitist products.

I don't see the connection with organic farming? Do you think it would be different with conventional intensive?
Israeli "collective farms" were set up in the middle of the desert long before the boom in organic farming, it's completely a false problem ...

You do not see the connection with organic ?? But it is precisely because it is organic that there are these plantations. As long as there was only the conventional, the Jordan was doing well.

Indeed, there were the Israeli plantations (but not that by the way) the difference is that the production was for the sole purpose of feeding the local population and not to be exported intensively to trade with consumers Europeans.

[Woodcutter]

[...] We are far from the 100% more expensive that we often have on the sale price ...
With margins like these, it's not surprising that these remain elitist products.

Yes but where I am not following you is that this MO hardly exists, or very little, with conventional ... You have to pay it ...
I can tell you that organic market gardeners from here that I know do not roll on gold, far from it!

[...]

I don't see the connection with organic farming? Do you think it would be different with conventional intensive?
Israeli "collective farms" were set up in the middle of the desert long before the boom in organic farming, it's completely a false problem ...

You do not see the connection with organic ?? But it is precisely because it is organic that there are these plantations. As long as there was only the conventional, the Jordan was doing well.

Isn't that just a logical evolution of the production of the sector and the "globalization" of the markets?

[Christine]

+ 1 with lumberjack.

Labor is certainly the most expensive item in organic compared to conventional. But there are other positions as well: I take as an example this comparative document of the methods of "production" of industrial chickens / red label / organic:
http://www.biolineaires.com/articles/ra ... t-bio.html

we can clearly see what costs the organic producer more:
- slaughter at 81 days minimum against 40 in industrial (x2!)
- 4000 chickens maximum / no limits (less economies of scale)
- 10 chicken per m2 / 24 chicken per m2
- quality litter / no litter
- outdoor route / no route
- rotation of routes / nothing (therefore multiplication of areas and ... costs)
- 90% mini AB food / cheapest filth
- contribution to verifying bodies / no such expenses

This is just one example, but the additional costs are obvious.

there are abuses, but it is up to the consumer to know why he consumes organic. And after all, I like as much as a strawberry eater in January consumes organic from the end of the world rather than the intensive from the end of the world (and I have no doubt that the next step in his approach will be to wait for the month of May).

in short your arguments cmoa, remind me of those of anti-biofuels with all kinds, on the pretext that there are abuses in the production of palm oil. We have to put things right, take what is positive and leave abuses aside ... and talk about them to educate consumers.

[C moa]

Christine, I like you, but there "you are crossing the line ..."
As I've already said :

Oooooh, you insult my intellectual honesty there Of course I compare what is comparable.

So I'm going to finish explaining myself.

Yes but where I am not following you is that this MO hardly exists, or very little, with conventional ... You have to pay it ...

Again, compare what is comparable. Christine compares battery farms with organic farms, forgetting the middle column where we find the red labels. The difference between a red label (as well as a large number of farm chickens) and an organic one is almost nonexistent and yet there is a difference in the price.
The chicken I take from the farm, it costs me 6.20 € / kg when an organic costs at least € 9 / kg. Ok they don't have the label but in this case, it is expensive the piece of paper (40 to 50% approximately).

Look i just found this little comparative where organic chickens are sold for almost € 11 per kg (€ 19.65 for 1.8 kg). It's not far from double anyway. Even the red labels are 4 to 5 € cheaper by chicken...

In the same spirit and to come back to our history of labor, when I go get my apples from local producers whether they are organic or not, they use the same harvesting methods, their quality is equivalent but not their price.

I can tell you that organic market gardeners from here that I know do not roll on gold, far from it!

I'm not saying they are scammers, I'm just trying to understand this very big price difference. So far, at least in my corner, I still have the feeling that it is very opaque and that it is mainly intended for sores. In summary, this does not encourage me to go to them, especially since there are other very good producers nearby.

Isn't that just a logical evolution of the production of the sector and the "globalization" of the markets?

Maybe but in this case, I consider that it is no longer organic. The initial idea is to have an agriculture reasoned, local, "without external contributions" and respectful of the environment.
We can see that today a certain number of these principles are "flouted" and that in the minds of people "organic is necessarily good on all levels".

Isn't it time for the industry to take the bull by the horns? These kinds of situations, be it the Dead Sea, Morocco or Spain, discredit the entire industry.

in short your arguments cmoa, remind me of those of anti-biofuels with all kinds, on the pretext that there are abuses in the production of palm oil. We have to make sense of things, take the positive and leave aside the abuses ...

What I note, the debate here also proves it a little, is that as soon as we touch the image of organic, there is an outcry. However, I have more the impression of wanting to protect the spirit of organic by denouncing what is wrong than those who prefer to let it happen.

Indeed, how to accept to "leave aside the abuses" ?? But unfortunately these abuses are the ones that do the most harm and often irreversible harm.
I read not too long ago that deforestation has decreased this year but it is also because there are fewer and fewer areas to cut.

When there is no more primary forest and the dead sea is invaded by seaweed and other seaweeds, it will no longer be time to be alarmed and to inform.

But after all, even if it is us who eat the peppers, tomatoes and other bananas that are produced there, we do not care it is not with us that it happens !!!

it's like for wind turbines in Brittany !!!

[Christophe]

(... uh speaking of organic ... logie, c moa I have not yet received the reports of the students on the Laigret project ... ??)

[C moa]

(... uh speaking of organic ... logie, c moa I have not yet received the reports of the students on the Laigret project ... ??)

I received them, I put them online immediately

[Christophe]

Ah great if you put them direct it's even better (convert them to .pdf before if possible).

I was waiting for them by email (see our last PM exchanges).

Have you already analyzed them in detail?

ps: stop the HS Laigret