The lack of growth.

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izentrop
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Re: The impossibility of growth.




by izentrop » 25/10/17, 21:34

Nothing escapes capitalism and leads us to collapse.

A new science is born: collapsology http://www.collapsologie.fr/
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Ahmed
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Re: The impossibility of growth.




by Ahmed » 25/10/17, 22:24

Collapsology can easily be a form of resignation. The danger would be to settle for the collapse and to be in a phenomenological posture, that is to say, to be absorbed in the academic description of the modalities and the evolution of the collapse, whereas the act essential is ethics: to announce the collapse because of the determinisms implemented, thus that the possibility of escaping the first by emancipating the second.
The disappearance of capitalism, which was the dream of many in the past, does not mean an era mechanically happier, since the subjugation of all to this societal mode would leave us brutally destitute: it is no longer so much exploitation that is feared today as the impossibility of selling one's labor power and the resulting social rejection. The alienation (etymologically, the fact of becoming a stranger to oneself) is such that this collapse that the old enemies of capitalism could not provoke (the current so-called "anti-capitalists" are singularly lacking in radicality!), Will result from its own disintegration and will leave its subjects in astonishment and chaos.
Only a proactive attitude will be able to transform, by anticipating it, this major, inevitable and desirable historical event, into an emancipatory advance. Unfortunately, the narrow struggles for power which occupy the front of the stage (Cf "The society of the Spectacle") obscure the real stakes and the denial of reality which triumphs remains the biggest obstacle to the necessary collective unraveling: any system tends to persevere in his being to the end of his internal logic and this poison permeates the souls under influence who struggle to free themselves from it ... : roll:
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izentrop
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Re: The impossibility of growth.




by izentrop » 25/10/17, 23:18

Ahmed wrote: every system tends to persevere in its being to the end of its internal logic and this poison permeates the souls under influence who struggle to get rid of it ...
The progress of science could bring us solutions, but with the rise of nationalism and populism, we do not take the path.
Gabriel Chardin also says that more research funding is needed:
Today, only 1% of GDP is devoted to research worldwide, which means that over a century, only a year's worth of wealth is devoted to it, whereas the collapse good chances to be within a century. http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/rue89/ru ... mites.html
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Ahmed
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Re: The impossibility of growth.




by Ahmed » 25/10/17, 23:48

The current scientific knowledge is very sufficient to get out of this bad situation. What matters is the orientation of the research or abilities toward a rational goal or, if one prefers, reasonable (not in the sense of limited). At present, the body of knowledge is directed towards an absolutely irrational purpose and constitutes the means of the cause, which is the infinite accumulation of abstract value, and that is what condemns us with it ...
Greater technological capabilities would not bring us anything, quite the opposite, from this principled absurdity, they would only comfort us (some times) in the illusion of a loophole and dissuade us from seeking a purpose that is strictly human.
I visited the "collapsology" site a little, I know the instigators a little, but remain skeptical about the "interdisciplinary" aspect: of course, by definition collapse affects all sectors, but what is cause is not multifactorial. For example, the depletion of oil could be alleviated by resorting to coal and, as you say, technological advances could solve some shortages of raw materials or energy (while creating other worries!).
The cause of the coming collapse comes from the realm of deterministic logic, which is why there is no possible solution. This issue can be suffered ou selectedit is the alternative that presents itself to us and our choice (or, more likely, our lack of choice) will result in many consequences ...

* The gradual impossibility of realizing this accumulation.
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Re: The impossibility of growth.




by izentrop » 26/10/17, 00:14

Ahmed wrote:The current scientific knowledge is very sufficient to get out of this bad situation.
Not in agriculture. To produce as much, to see more than at present without exhausting the soil and without pesticides as the people want it implies an important technological good, although think an anti-globalization media like Bastamag or the permaculturists.
But also by wasting less energy and giving repetitive and repetitive tasks to the robots.

An overview of progress already made http://mashable.com/2017/10/17/robotic- ... te-farming
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Re: The impossibility of growth.




by Ahmed » 26/10/17, 10:24

Not in agriculture. Producing as much, if not more than at present, without depleting the soil and without pesticides as people want, involves a significant technological leap.

There is good basic knowledge in agronomy, but entire sections of this science are still fallow (sic!), Due to the orientation of so-called "conventional" agriculture. From this point of view, I agree that further research is imperative, in a sense of rapprochement with the functioning of soils and natural processes. This sector is vital, but not very productive in value *, therefore unlikely to bear the cost of robots: the latter could only cause the sector to fall back into the current rut ...

* Those who followed understood that abstract value and concrete value (utility) do not mix well (although present together in each commodity) and that the second exists only as a condition of realization of the first.
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Re: The impossibility of growth.




by izentrop » 26/10/17, 11:02

Ahmed wrote:... unlikely to bear the cost of robots: the latter could only make the industry fall back into the current rut ...
The future will tell...
For the cost, it is quickly compensated. Not easy today to find small seasonal hands interested in a painful and repetitive work poorly paid.
A French startup has understood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeSwiqwD7PE
If we stop sanitizing, with more biodiversity, still covered soils, surface composts ..., diseases become endemic. Cultivated plants must become more resistant to pests by themselves. Especially since there is this sling of environmentalists anti this or that.

From where another sector that is gaining momentum, the bio-control ... The multinationals understood it well.
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Ahmed
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Re: The impossibility of growth.




by Ahmed » 26/10/17, 12:48

Regarding my remark about the cost of robots, there are two aspects (of the same phenomenon) to consider:
1- robotization is part of a particular context that assumes the excesses that are currently observed.
2- The cost of labor is considerable in market gardening, especially since it is ethically respectful, since the abstract value of vegetables is roughly assessed according to the amount of work that is socially necessary. .. in the least ethical conditions ...

Mechanization allows a larger production of goods, but at the same time brings down the value produced unitarily, which is, unsurprisingly, the current major systemic contradiction ...
I believe more in an approach like Did and phenology in market gardening, on the basis of current achievements and later developments that are always possible (but in cohesion with it).
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Re: The impossibility of growth.




by izentrop » 27/10/17, 08:55

Ahmed wrote:I believe more in an approach like that of Did and phenology in market gardening, on the basis of the current achievements and later developments always possible (but in cohesion with this one).
Growing on living soil does not prevent the robotization, We saw the evolution of the techniques MSV 2017 (example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCBatyINPIo )

In AB, there are ethical blockages of another time, such as the refusal of synthetic molecules in phyto and fertilization and the same problem of humus loss as in conventional agriculture.
The INRA report shows the difference in AC / AB performance, especially in cereals http://institut.inra.fr/Missions/Eclair ... rformances

The future would be to create an ASV label (living soil agriculture) which rewards quality production while safeguarding the sustainability of soils, based on the result of scientific peer review studies, without excluding synthetic nitrogen fertilizers and discarded. political and ethical considerations. Utopia ?? :frown:

When "all" of our organic waste is collected and recycled, fueling life in the soil instead of ending up at the bottom of the sea, humanity will have taken a big step forward.
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Re: The impossibility of growth.




by Ahmed » 27/10/17, 20:02

I watched the video and found no trace of a robot ... only very classic equipment used judiciously in a particular context ... A technological race would necessarily lead to the current dead ends: elimination of the poorest and concentration of the activity within large production units. One of the great "interests" of sophisticated equipment is to eliminate competition.
You speak of renouncing a political approach, but it exists in the CA, although never recognized by his supporters ...
As for ethics, do you think there really are too many? I find that indifference in this regard poses serious problems.
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