Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?

Books, television programs, films, magazines or music to share, counselor to discover ... Talk to news affecting in any way the econology, environment, energy, society, consumption (new laws or standards) ...
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9772
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2638

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by sicetaitsimple » 19/09/17, 21:52

Did67 wrote:
- all energy sources (mechanical, kinetic, chemical, electrical) can be transformed into heat energy with a yield of 100%

- the reverse is not at all true: with heat, you can at best convert into electricity with a yield of I do not know, about 50%; chemical energy (fuel), you cannot transform it into mechanical energy with a yield of only 40% (in a heat engine) ...



So anyway to clarify, as we were talking about heat pump a little higher.

You can burn gas in a condensing boiler to heat yourself, with an efficiency of almost 100% on PCI.
You can also convert it into a combined cycle power plant, with a yield of almost 60%, we are going to simplify taking 50% which more than covers losses on the networks.
With a very good heat pump, an average COP of 4, you will have in heat returned a yield of 50% * 4, or 200%, compared to the initial "gas" energy that enters the system.

So certainly it is not free, because a good heat pump is like your pellet boiler, it is not free! But you can have a much better performance (compared to the incoming gas) than a boiler very efficient condensation.
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by chatelot16 » 19/09/17, 22:27

exactly! a good thermal power plant and a good heat pump can have a total output 2 times better than a boiler!

but the 2nd advantage of the heat pump is that it is not attached to a particular source of energy: it lets EDF supply it with all the energy available

unlike an oil boiler that only eats fuel oil, a heat pump will use all the renewable energy that edf will be willing to distribute

when you heat a house that is not a colander it is not essential to heat at any time ... when you want to help a network with a lot of intermittent renewable source it will be enough to control the heat pump for make them work in priority at the right time

another remark: as long as the off-peak hours are at night, there is not enough photovoltaic! when there is enough photovoltaic off-peak hours will be the day!

and that explains why there is not yet a highly variable tariff to encourage consumers to consume preferably according to renewable energy ... there is not yet enough renewable energy!

when there is enough renewable energy it will be easy to set up consumption management systems avoiding the need for storage

good heat pumps will be among the consumers adaptable to production
1 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Christophe » 20/09/17, 14:39

sicetaitsimple wrote:With a very good heat pump, an average COP of 4, you will have in heat returned a yield of 50% * 4, or 200%, compared to the initial "gas" energy that enters the system.


Idea already debated, Sanyo even offers one for sale at 183% overall yield! Finally rather a COP than a scientifically speaking yield. See: heating-insulation / gas-heat-pump-in-cogeneration-by-sanyo-t6555.html

See as well: heating-insulation / coupling-micro-cogeneration-and-heat-pump-t6292.html et heating-insulation / heat-pump and geothermal-the-reality-not-pink-of-the-moment-t4991.html

Found via the new internal search engine: search.php 8) 8)
0 x
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9772
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2638

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by sicetaitsimple » 20/09/17, 18:23

Christophe wrote:
sicetaitsimple wrote:With a very good heat pump, an average COP of 4, you will have in heat returned a yield of 50% * 4, or 200%, compared to the initial "gas" energy that enters the system.


Idea already debated, Sanyo even offers one for sale at 183% overall yield!


No, not really, in the diagram I am describing we go through a total transformation of gas into electricity in a power station, then by the use of a "classic" heat pump, electric, not by the machine presented by Sanyo .
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by chatelot16 » 20/09/17, 18:55

whether the heat pump is made by sanyo or anyone else changes nothing

if the heat pump uses electricity made by a modern thermal factory, it produces more heat than if we burn the same fuel in a boiler ... but I insist that this even better! the heat pump uses all the energy supplied by edf including renewable energy

the more renewable energy the more useful the heat pumps will be

when there is enough photovoltaic off-peak hours will be in broad daylight and we will run the heat pumps in priority during the day!

I still do not understand why some want to favor electric cars and are against heat pumps

on the contrary I find that heat pumps are good ways to save fuel which is good fuel for vehicles

a good part of the pollution of big cities is due to the heating with fuel oil: replacing fuel oil boilers by heat pumps is much easier than replacing diesel cars by electric cars ... encountered by the easiest before asking which is economically almost impossible
1 x
User avatar
Remundo
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 15992
Registration: 15/10/07, 16:05
Location: Clermont Ferrand
x 5188

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Remundo » 20/09/17, 22:55

I wanted to go back over the history of replacing cars before 1997 ...

I have two Renault 19 that work well, they consume 6L / 100km.

imagine that I take one back to buy an equivalent petrol car ... it will consume the same to within 0,5L ...

and making a new car is the CO2 equivalent of 100 km traveled ... because of the gray energy.

On the hybrid side? it's the desert, anecdotal. Are we talking about E85? No more.

So its measure, it is the blunder intended to run the factories of cars with gasoline, that they are new or recent occasion ...
0 x
Image
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Christophe » 20/09/17, 23:02

It is quite true but it is rather is one more gift to the automobile economy under the guise of ecology ... at the expense of the people ... How do you want people who struggle with their old cars to like ecology under these conditions?

After the cars in good condition from the 90s it is still quite rare and since the criteria of the CT will increase enormously in 2018 it will become even more ... So much so that the measure to ban the old car will be done by itself (via the CT ...) ...

The car is a REAL money pump but people are so asleep that they don't really realize it ... rare are the cars that are below the 0.2 € / km mark in real cost of use ... i.e. € 20 / 100km ... € 200 / 1000km ... and therefore € 20 / 000km ...

To summarize: a thermal car is paid 1 time for purchase and 1 time for use!
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by chatelot16 » 21/09/17, 10:14

the worst part is that we are not even sure that new cars pollute much less than old ones!

every time we see figures it is only the standards respected by the manufacturers for the homologation of their car ... we never see any measure of normal car in real use

the old standards were not severe but the cars easily polluted much less than what the standard allowed

current standards are much more severe but manufacturers are cheating ... and real cars pollute more than standards

as long as there is no real measure in normal use I will continue to think that pushing to buy new cars is a joke, only good for car manufacturers ... and not even that good, because customers can only spend the money they have ... and this pseudo anti-pollution harassment only disorganizes the market

without this disorganization which obliges the customers to buy cars which they do not like, the manufacturers would be obliged to listen better to the customers to do what is useful to them, for example lighter and more economical car
1 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Christophe » 21/09/17, 13:08

chatelot16 wrote:because customers can only spend the money they have ...


Uh not agree! This is why we invented credit, leasing or renting widely applied to the automotive sector ... I would be curious to know what% of new car is bought "cash"? 5 to 10% maximum I presume ...

chatelot16 wrote:for example lighter and more economical car


You speak Charles!

I have never heard of any opinion poll or survey on cars !!

The manufacturers dictate their Law ... and when, by a miracle, they innovate in the concept of mobility, they scuttle themselves to prevent the success of the innovations.

The most recent example is the Renault Twizy transport-electriques / renault-twizy-available-for-sale-price-and-options-t11636.html which doesn't even have an original window !! No kidding?

It is not even possible to have an option at Renault, I spoke with an owner a few days ago: they are independent equipment manufacturers who offer them ... at 500 € for 2 windows or not far from 8% of the price of the Twizy ... He also said that the suspension was very uncomfortable!

We could also mention the BMW C1, a real innovation of the time but which was only produced a few years ago ... I did a little study on it ... almost 20 YEARS ago !! https://www.econologie.com/bmw-c1/

Otherwise the specifications of the TRUE car of the future ECONOLOGICAL was made cooperatively on Econology (here we listen to the others ...) a few years ago here:
new-transport / car-the-future-of-t6803.html


But the current trend is towards ever heavier and more powerful vehicles, just to show "that we have (not) in the underpants" ...the builders use wonderfully the psychology of human egocentricity ... the rest do not care as of the year 40!

Read also: new-transport / car-of-the-future-future-of-the-automobile-quotes-t5608.html
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Did67 » 21/09/17, 17:53

sicetaitsimple wrote:
You can burn gas in a condensing boiler to heat yourself, with an efficiency of almost 100% on PCI.
You can also convert it into a combined cycle power plant, with a yield of almost 60%, we are going to simplify taking 50% which more than covers losses on the networks.
With a very good heat pump, an average COP of 4, you will have in heat returned a yield of 50% * 4, or 200%, compared to the initial "gas" energy that enters the system.

So certainly it is not free, because a good heat pump is like your pellet boiler, it is not free! But you can have a much better performance (compared to the incoming gas) than a boiler very efficient condensation.


I am combining your two messages.

Yes, if we have a surplus in renewables, what you say holds. For now, we have I do not know how many nuclear units are running! And we are in the process of building them (EPR of Flamanville).

And I'm talking about there, the 15/20 years to come. My boiler does not have a longer life expectancy.

Today, we have a "bouquet" of energy. With potential for recoverable biomass - French forests are growing, and standing stock is growing. Even if we can worry about some disproportionate projects.

I am going to put it like this: as long as the renewables are not structurally in surplus, I would find it logical that we better plan the management of these different sources. And I find it incoherent, from a thermodynamic point of view (I had forgotten that you were in the energies!), To use MASSIVELY the form of electrical energy for thermal applications. Of course, as always, there are situations: "slight" renovation of an old Alsatian house ... So marginally, of course. But MASSIVELY, there is something wrong! [As long as renewable energies are not structurally in surplus - during heating period, of course !]

But I remain enraged that currently a basic house is equipped with electricity. Because the RT2012. And because for the manufacturer, it is the cheapest. Even here, in the "village subdivision" zone, with the Alsatian forest ...

This is what makes me angry. And there is an electricity "lobby" which is, whether we like it or not, a direct ally of the nuclear lobby. Including "thermal engineers" who are in the thermal, those that sellers of fertilizers, pesticides or tractors are "agricultural engineers". This does not detract from their competence. It's just the wrong paradigm. Or ethics?

We may not agree. I express a point of view!
1 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Media & News: TV shows, reports, books, news ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 216 guests