Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?

[sicetaitsimple]

I have a kWh of renewable electricity, I can multiply it on average over the year by 3 or 4 in thermal kWh with a heat pump. It's silly?

Not stupid in principle. Even attractive. Except that...

Except that there is also the principle of reality: 8 days of Siberian cold between Christmas and New Year ... A little solar (which will be at the top, with the PV thus cooled, but only a few hours). No wind (the Siberian anticyclone sprawled over France). There are still the dams (even if they are frozen on the surface, below it is sinking) ... I doubt that we can, in our country, build a heating model on renewable sources, even with a heat pump which multiplies by "3 or 4 on average ".

You will agree that on these nights, the COP will not be "3 or 4 on average". Come on, by - 15 ° at night, a COP of 1,5, with the defrost, it will not be bad, right ??? [I'm no longer up to date with PACs - can't keep up to date on all fronts]

Now you're not going to sell a system that wouldn't be able to cope in this situation, right?

Of course, but the solution is like hybridization for the car. Which allows you to pass a complicated course, without being very consumer on average over the year. Without ads, just to illustrate:

http://www.atlantic.fr/Chauffer-le-loge ... NOx#link-1

[Christophe]

Well it will never be better than wood ...

What I criticize the manufacturers of PAC is to pass their solutions for:
- "free" energy (without doubt the worst argument ...)
- renewable and / or clean energy
- "sustainable" energy (a fridge that lasts 20 years that no longer exists, a stove yes ...)

The second point is only true on the condition of supplying kWh of renewable energy or at least erasing the consumption of its heat pump (quite rare I think because a large air-water or water-water heat pump which must produce 2 20 kWh a year is at least 000 kWh to produce ... and financially the total investment is very heavy: 6000 30 € at least I think in air-water, 000 50 € in water-water ... )

[sicetaitsimple]

As said it is better to use electric kWh in a more "noble" way ...

So there I fall from my branch! And I am very surprised to appear (in my eyes anyway) the most "visionary" of you all!

I am of course not talking about today or tomorrow morning.

But in 20 or 30 years, electric renewables will turn everything upside down. This is already the case a few days a year today, with negative spot electricity prices, especially in Germany!

There is no longer or there will no longer be any "nobility" in electricity, it will be like agricultural production: when there is too much of it, prices drop dramatically and we have to find a way to use them, in heating why not, when there is not enough the prices go up and indeed we will reserve it for captive uses.

Hybridization will be the watchword, I am absolutely certain!

[Christophe]

In 20 or 30 years the heat pumps currently sold will be almost entirely discarded ... so if we can save a few hundred tonnes of nuclear waste by no longer promoting it TODAY, well I'm not against it ...

prices drop dramatically

No analyst forecasts a lasting fall in energy prices ...

Hybridization will be the watchword, I am absolutely certain!

A good energy mix would also be good ... follow the example of Sweden ... Germany is also progressing well in this direction ...

[sicetaitsimple]

In 20 or 30 years the heat pumps currently sold will be almost entirely discarded ... so if we can save a few hundred tonnes of nuclear waste by no longer promoting it TODAY, well I'm not against it ...

prices drop dramatically

No analyst forecasts a lasting fall in energy prices ...

Well, you will have to explain to me the relationship between deployment of heat pumps and nuclear needs, because, as Didier explains, the heat pump problem is the few tens of days of intense cold each winter, and it is not nuclear power that will meet those needs.

[Ahmed]

Very difficult to reason about what the situation will be in 20 or 30 years ... and the comparison with agricultural prices is irrelevant: the price variation penalizes producers, which everyone cares madly about, while in industrial matter it would be the interests of investors that would be impacted: not admissible! It is also unlikely that there is an overabundant supply of renewable energy, since abundance does not create value, only the opposite ...

[Christophe]

An oil or gas boiler replaced by a heat pump ("Because it's cleaner" lol) it is indeed an over-consumption of electricity (nuclear therefore for France) on the entire heating period... and these kinds of cases exist ...

[sicetaitsimple]

An oil or gas boiler replaced by a heat pump ("Because it's cleaner" lol) it is not over-consumption of electricity (nuclear therefore for France) on the entire heating period... and these kinds of cases exist ...

And therefore an overall under-consumption over the entire heating period for gas or oil .....

[Christophe]

An under-consumption of what ??? Sorry but I didn't follow you at all ...

During the non-heating period the heat pump will run less than in winter ... but if it does DHW it will consume even more kWh electric than an oil or gas boiler would have done over the same period (but we agree to keep heating a boiler of 25-35 kW to do DHW in summer it's stupidity ...) ...

[sicetaitsimple]

Very difficult to reason about what the situation will be in 20 or 30 years ... and the comparison with agricultural prices is irrelevant: the price variation penalizes producers, which everyone cares madly about, while in industrial matter it would be the interests of investors that would be impacted: not admissible! It is also unlikely that there is an overabundant supply of renewable energy, since abundance does not create value, only the opposite ...

Absolutely disagree ...

Over the 20 or 30 years, we can certainly argue, but the exact date does not matter from my point of view, it is indeed a fundamental trend. However, as of today, there are times when electricity (MWh) not transported, not distributed, not taxed, is worth nothing if you are able to buy it on a wholesale market.

On the comparison with agricultural prices, no agreement either. On the contrary. It will become a real problem in the future for "commercial" renewables, those who sell their production to live, self-consumption coming under another economic model. If you have in a country like France 50GW of PV or 50GW of wind power installed, a beautiful summer day or a day with a strong gust of wind your product is no longer worth anything because there is too much of it on the market.

So certainly there was a period where whatever you produced it was bought at a fixed price over 15 or 20 years whatever the need, but this auspicious period is now almost over, and will certainly be completely within 5 in 10 years.