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Ahmed
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by Ahmed » 19/07/14, 12:40

Chatelot, you write:
ecology must be the fight against waste

... it is with money that a competent state must govern ...

I bring these two contradictory sentences together: if the state governs not only by financial incentive, but also by regulatory constraint, its aim, as said before, is to create the conditions for the maximization of value, therefore of waste ; ecology (or so-called such) participates in the same purpose; reduce pollution and its consequences to a level compatible with the possibility of its continuation, anesthetize the scruples of consciences that doubt the validity of the model, offer a dream that would finally reconcile opposites * ...

* See on this subject the rantings of Jeremy rufkin on a green capitalism ...
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by chatelot16 » 19/07/14, 13:48

regulatory constraints are useful in some cases, but often ineffective or flawed

we can always try to put gendarme everywhere to force everyone to sort, but it is enough that there is a step missing in the chain so that the work of one is useless at all

by putting a well placed financial incentive, you give profitability to all those who will do the job, and it will be done!

and we come back to the main subject! giving real value to all the recovery materials creates work, making it possible to earn money and no longer be homeless!

worthless compulsory recycling has killed the rag picker business

there are really absurd regulations: the activity of recuperators of all kinds is complicated by regulations ... it is simpler to throw everything away as quickly as possible than to store a little to reuse it better
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by Ahmed » 19/07/14, 17:35

Giving real value to all salvage materials creates work, making it possible to save money and no longer be homeless!

Transforming homeless people into miserable ragpickers doesn't seem like a big promotion to me!

It is easier to throw everything away as quickly as possible than to store it a little for better reuse.

No! Recycling, when it takes place, is opposed to reuse; recycling centers have eliminated the possibility, for a lot of people, of recovering objects thrown by others, for the benefit of companies that treat everything as raw material, it is a privatization of the resource (at the same time as the extraction of absolute surplus value, via unpaid but counted work).
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by Janic » 19/07/14, 18:02

Ahmed, you write:
The analogy between an individual defect and the functioning of an institution, in this case the state, is not admissible!
A particular weakness cannot be compared to a constitutive mechanism: what is accidental in the first case is principal in the second.


The second is only the accumulation of the first. Then and only then, that it becomes institutionalized is in the order of things. Now the state, in itself, is only a view of the mind, but on the other hand it is the result of this multitude of individual thoughts and behaviors.
So, in my opinion (which only engages me, of course) the two are interdependent.

Further:
Quote:
...on an ethical level, doing your own sorting empowers individuals...


Not so sure! On the one hand, these are practices which do not come under personal initiative and whose concrete use is not transparent, on the other hand it is clear that the purpose of the operation is to accelerate the cycle of the commodity and in no way to remedy it.

Yes and no at the same time. Awareness (in any area whatsoever) does not come from nowhere, but from experience, influence, even an obligation. An accident on the road, experienced, can be more effective than an entire information campaign and therefore empower the individual concerned.
A parent who has died from tobacco-related cancer, for example, can encourage them to quit and therefore make the person responsible. But even an obligation will lead (willy-nilly) to a change in attitude over time (there will always be refractory people, of course.)
Finally ! Admittedly, this does not necessarily leave the system, but it is necessary to start with a bit of some flaws that it may have and moreover that does not exclude personal initiative however. The aim, if possible, is to achieve a harmony between production with a high rate of current pollution and a policy of reduction of this and of individual behavior which accompanies this movement. This is one of the roles of ecology (or should we say ecologies, as everyone perceives it from different angles.) Hence the strong progression of AB, natural care methods, etc.
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by chatelot16 » 19/07/14, 19:03

Ahmed wrote:Transforming homeless people into miserable ragpickers doesn't seem like a big promotion to me!


why add miserable to chiffonnier?

I find the work of a ragpicker more respectable than some civil servant ... who not only waste paper but oblige everyone to waste even more by the bad decisions that they take

and in ecology we reach peaks in the good intention whose realization becomes waste
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by Ahmed » 19/07/14, 20:16

The second is only the cumulation of the first

If this were the case, which I do not believe in any way, "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" and, therefore, there is no need to stop to consider its additive character.

Now the state, in itself, is only a view of the mind, but on the other hand it is the result of this multitude of individual thoughts and behaviors.

Certainly, the state, as a view of the mind could be assimilated to the crystallization of a general will, however the reality is quite different and does not represent an average of the wishes of the people!


Chatelot, if I add the epithet of miserable to ragpickers, it is that obviously the balance of power (which is the determinant of access to value) of the homeless transforming into ragpicker can only hope that very meager compensation.

The reason is simple: the average amount of work spent on each task is very low due to the general productivity observed, therefore the work expenditure of a homeless person who cannot call for a significant investment aimed at being at the level of this average expenditure, will be forced to work out at a very low hourly rate, to barely subsist.

Furthermore, and for the same reason of the balance of power, the most profitable niches have long been invested by large groups and transformed into private hunts, therefore only remain marginal activities (often outsourced, and therefore controlled, by the former).
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by Flytox » 19/07/14, 23:14

for the triatement of chemically complicated waste there is an absurdity: a company to recycle batteries must pay a lot of costs for the control of classified establishments, while it has a positive role ... reverse the one who gets rid of batteries no matter where has nothing to pay: the conclusion is clear we charge more to the one who does the right deed


It is true that it is inept to charge someone who makes "efforts". For control, it would be necessary to do it in particular unexpectedly among those who "have nothing to declare" ....

But in this story, the one and only thing that interests our users of complicated chemicals to manage is to reduce their costs. So, even when there are controls, we only manage / make efforts what will be controlled and all the induced products, adjoining even the "not sympathetic at all", if they are not part of the controlled list. are transferred at the cheapest and without shame on the final destination ... until one day they are regulated. :frown:
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by Janic » 20/07/14, 08:03

Ahmed hello
Quote:
The second is only the cumulation of the first


If this were the case, which I do not believe in any way, "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" and, therefore, there is no need to stop to consider its additive character..
It is the over-unity so much sought by some and which, as Sen no sen would say, is opposed to the main principles of thermodynamics.


Certainly, the state, as a view of the mind could be assimilated to the crystallization of a general will, however the reality is quite different and does not represent an average of the wishes of the people! Obviously! To bring together a whole population under the same point of view, that would be a miracle. It is the necessity of the moment that rules! Ecology, which was not on the rise in the middle of the last century, is becoming a reason to believe, even one of the main drivers, in a possible future with all the trial and error that we see. "Paris was not built in a day" says the popular expression.
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by hic » 20/07/14, 08:08

Flytox wrote:
It is true that it is inept to charge someone who makes "efforts". For control, it would be necessary to do it in particular unexpectedly among those who "have nothing to declare" ....

Hi Flytox
I do not even imagine that it is subsidized!
In this case, would there not be a windfall effect? : Mrgreen:
(like photovoltaic, and subsidy pocketed mainly by big boxes)
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by chatelot16 » 20/07/14, 10:06

this is why it is important to place the subsidies in such a way as not to cause any harmful effect.

subsidize the processing of batteries should be done provided that the battery is paid to all those who bring them at a defined price: it does not benefit the big factory that does the processing ... it benefits all the chain

there is already a beginning of this principle in different ecotax on certain product, but we only see the tax, we do not see the result in recycling ...
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